Serious Disturbance at HM Prison Birmingham

Debate between Lord Woolf and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Baroness. Of course well-trained prison officers have the ability to identify problems that are developing, which those of lesser experience will not be able to do. Eighty per cent of the present cohort of prison officers have five years’ experience or more in their job. We are not only working hard to recruit new prison officers but we are working very hard on a programme for the retention of prison officers, because, as the noble Baroness indicated, experience is as important as numbers.

I am not in a position to comment on individual prisons on a case-by-case basis. However, clearly, what lies behind our intention to invest £1.3 billion in the prison estate is the desire to ensure that there are decent conditions available for prisoners during their sentence. I accept that there was an incident at Moorland. There was an incident at Bedford and there have been others during the year. Those clearly place strain on the prison estate, prison officers and staff in general. However, we are responding positively to those concerns. One of our principal aims is to ensure that rehabilitation and the opportunity for work and education are principal goals in the context of prison policy.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the answers that we have had to the questions raised. As the House knows, the Strangeways inquiry resulted in my giving a report and since that time, I have followed up what has been happening in prisons, not least because of my involvement with the Prison Reform Trust. Does the Minister agree that it has to be recognised that overcrowding is a cancer that can destroy all the best endeavours in prisons? I am afraid that any answer given to the problems which does not take that into account, notwithstanding what was said about building more prisons, will not really root out the problem because the sort of things which the Minister has talked about are so much more difficult. Finally, does he agree that it is a particularly difficult time in prisons when they go through a process of reform? That was true just before Strangeways and we are, I hope, going through a period of reform now. Are Ministers conscious of that?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord. We are of course conscious of the demands placed upon the prison estate and prison staff at a time of change. It will be demanding as we go forward with the development of the new prison estate. Clearly overcrowding, not on its own but as part of that terrible mix of issues, can lead to difficulty, danger and violence in our prisons. That is why we are concerned to address the issue of overcrowding as swiftly as we possibly can.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012

Debate between Lord Woolf and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With particular reference to proceedings concerning children, I point out that legal aid remains available where most needed. Indeed, legal aid was provided for in over 54,000 proceedings last year under the special Children Act.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

Does the Minister accept that what is happening in regard to legal aid is damaging the reputation of our justice system and that judges up and down the country are finding it difficult to administer justice? One interpretation of the way the vote on Brexit took place is that it indicated that the public are very concerned about British justice; will that factor be taken into account in determining when the review that has been promised takes place?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We retain full confidence in the British judicial system, which is a world leader without any question of doubt. As regards the provision of legal aid, of course it is important, but it remains available where it is most needed, having regard to the financial demands that fall upon the country in more areas than just legal aid.