Prisoners: Foreign Nationals

Debate between Lord Woolf and Lord Faulks

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

The noble Lord refers to the report on Wormwood Scrubs, which I entirely accept shows a distressing picture. As he and the House will know, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister are determined to improve our prison system, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given £1.3 billion to enable that to happen. It will not happen overnight, but I am sure the House will accept the Government’s sincerity and determination to deal with some of the most unattractive aspects of our prison system.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, I fully accept that the Government have been trying to find a solution to the problem of these unfortunate prisoners, but the fact remains that it is now coming up to the fourth year since the power to impose IPP sentences was removed. That is far too long a period when, as was indicated at the time, these sentences put on a prisoner the impossible task of proving that he is not a danger. That is the real heart of the problem. Unless something is done to tackle that, does the Minister recognise that there will be a substantial further period before the last of these prisoners are released?

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, the House of course greatly respects the noble and learned Lord for his experience in this area, but it is a matter for the equally experienced Parole Board to decide whether or not it is safe to release these prisoners. It must not be forgotten that, in each of the cases, the relevant judge sentenced the defendant in accordance with the then existing powers for the protection of the public. It therefore becomes incumbent upon the Parole Board to decide whether it is safe to release them, notwithstanding the fact that they may have a short-tariff sentence. It would be easy of course for the Government to wash their hands of this, but they have taken a responsible view to unravelling this unfortunate provision, which was brought in by the previous Labour Government.

Prison Reform

Debate between Lord Woolf and Lord Faulks

Tuesday 15th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness’s contribution to reducing the population of women prisoners and her concern for them. Of course, she will be pleased that their number is lower than it has been for a decade. We hope that we can reproduce the best practice found in Holloway—albeit it is closing—and in the women’s centres in making sure that the arrangements in prison are those best suited for women and their rehabilitation.

[Lord Woolf]

My Lords, is it not right that the inflation in sentences—they are longer than they have ever been—is caused by action taken by Governments, and not by judges, to impose fixed sentences? These sentences form rocks that the rest of sentencing has to accommodate. If that were not the case, sentences would be shorter, because judges are prevented from imposing the sentences that they otherwise would by the fixed-sentencing policies of the Government of a particular time.

[Lord Faulks]

I am grateful for the contribution made by the noble and learned Lord. Of course, this Government and the coalition Government before them were very much against fixed sentences. It was the coalition Government who repealed, for example, provision in relation to indeterminate sentences for public protection. In the eight criminal justice Acts that were passed by the Labour Government, extraordinary inflexibility was given to judges in passing sentences—that is one of the results in terms of the prison population. We are endeavouring to give as many resources as we can to the Parole Board to make sure that those prisoners will be released when it is safe to do so.

Public Advocate Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Woolf and Lord Faulks

Friday 29th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wills, for introducing this Bill and giving the House the opportunity to debate this important matter today. He was kind enough to pay credit to officials and Ministers in the Ministry of Justice who have engaged with him, and he has been helpful and constructive in explaining what lies behind this Bill. Let me make it clear at the outset that the Government share his desire to ensure that bereaved families and injured people are properly involved and supported throughout the investigation, inquest or inquiry process following a major incident.

There was unanimity in the contributions that your Lordships have heard, which echoes what lies behind this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, spoke of the sad history of disasters in football grounds and the sometimes inadequate inquiries that have followed those. He was right, however, to reflect on the improvements that have taken place, and he gave as a shining example the inquiry into the 7/7 disaster, conducted by Lady Justice Hallett.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, who has particular experience of these issues, was absolutely right to praise Paul Goggins, who did so much in his modest way—I came across it briefly in committees—to help promote the interests of those so often neglected in such situations. The noble Lord made the important point that although cost must not be excluded from government consideration, we must think about costs further down the line.

The noble Lord, Lord Wood, and other noble Lords, made the point that these proposals augment rather than replace the existing mechanisms. Indeed, as I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Wills, very much accepts that. The noble Lord, Lord Wood, also referred to the fact that, in the wake of these disasters, what confronts those who are sadly affected by them can be intimidating, and they are placed in a quasi-Rumsfeldian dilemma. He was right, too, to remind us of the Aberfan disaster and the dreadful noises made by the establishment in its wake.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Bach, referred to possible drafting imperfections. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wills, is perfectly aware of the fact that there could be improvements, and the noble Lord made specific reference to them.

Notwithstanding those potential improvements, I reiterate that the Government are fully committed to making sure that victims have a voice and do not feel alienated from official processes. Indeed, I am pleased to say that much of what is proposed for the role of a public advocate already takes place, and it is fair to say that there has been much progress.

The noble Lord’s Bill is driven by the concern that following a major incident involving the loss of life in the past, such as the “Derbyshire” sinking in 1980, the Hillsborough disaster in 1989—which has been a significant focus of the debate—and the “Marchioness” tragedy in the same year, bereaved families have undoubtedly felt ignored and swept up in official processes. They have felt that once the state starts to look into the matter, their needs and wishes are not paramount, or even important, and that the process can be confusing and lacks the transparency that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, stressed as being important. In order to address this, the Bill would create the role of a public advocate to represent bereaved families and injured survivors to ensure they understand all the processes and are supported through them, and to review and make sure they have access to the documents used in the investigation.

I know that this is a matter in which the noble Lord has, as he modestly told us, a long-standing interest, as well as considerable expertise and experience. He has been closely involved with the families who were bereaved in the Hillsborough tragedy and who are now involved in the final stages of the inquest into the death of their loved ones. Indeed, it is right to say that Sir John Goldring is currently in the course of summing up to the jury in that inquest. We do not expect a decision for a few weeks yet, and quite what form that decision will take we do not know; it may be a narrative verdict or it may be something more narrow.

I had a meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Watts, who is unable to be here today, and he asked me to say that, given his personal experience, he very much supports what lies behind the Bill, without necessarily committing himself to the actual words.

The Government acknowledge that there were significant issues in the way in which the Hillsborough families were treated in the various processes which followed and we agree that it is vital that lessons are learned and that their experiences should not be that of others in the future. It is because we agree that the needs of the family are so important that we have already taken a number of steps forward.

Reference was made to the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 and the suite of rules and regulations underpinning it. They reformed the way in which coroners’ investigations and inquests are now conducted following a major disaster. These reforms have been in place since July 2013 and have the central aim of putting bereaved people at the heart of the process. The aim is that they receive the support they need and that the process is transparent and understandable from the time of a death being reported to the coroner until the end of the inquest hearing.

Under the reforms we have taken forward, bereaved people have the right to request most documents involved in a coroner investigation and inquest and they can expect the coroner’s office to update them at regular intervals. They can also expect the coroner’s office to explain each stage of the process so that they understand what is happening and why. They can expect compassion and respect for their needs to be central to the investigation and inquest.

They will also have the resource of the Guide to Coroner Services, which my department published in February 2014. This explains clearly and simply what they can expect from the coroner and his or her staff and what to do if that does not happen. Under the 2009 Act, a key role of the coroner and his or her office in an investigation is to make sure that “interested persons”, including bereaved people, understand the process of investigation and are informed of their rights and responsibilities. They are entitled to receive documents and other relevant information, such as hearing dates, so that they can fully participate in the process. Many coroners now also have a support service which provides emotional and other practical support to those attending inquests on the day.

Under the Inquiries Act 2005, the inquiry chair is under a statutory obligation to have regard to fairness. Core participants, which will clearly include all those with whom we are concerned, are entitled to disclosure. The inquiry chair will act as data controller, devising and implementing mechanisms for obtaining, handling and securely storing documents provided to and generated by the inquiry. There is guidance for those running inquiries, including inquiry chairs, teams and sponsoring departments, which sets this out.

Therefore, much of what is in the Bill setting out what a public advocate would do is already happening in the existing processes. We are today in a very different climate from that at the time of the Hillsborough tragedy and in the intervening years. The needs of bereaved people are rightly much more central. I hope noble Lords agree that the current landscape brought about by these reforms and the hard work and contributions of so many makes it less likely that what happened to the Hillsborough families will occur again.

We are not, of course, complacent about this but I believe that, at the moment, there is no need for the public advocate role that the Bill envisages. However, the Government agree that the needs of bereaved families, in particular, must be paramount and that the principles that lie behind the Bill are right. Bereaved families should feel that their voice is heard and confident that processes are fair and transparent. They should feel that they fully understand what is happening and able to participate effectively.

We are, therefore, willing to consider whether the existing processes can be improved and whether any of the principles in the Bill can be incorporated into the existing system. We could, for example, place more firmly in the guidance which is already available to inquiry chairs and teams how important the needs of the families are. We can look at whether the positive things coming from the Hillsborough inquest, not yet concluded, such as the family forums set up to keep the families informed of the investigative processes and to give them a safe space in which to discuss issues, can be replicated in other major inquests and inquiries.

As to specific next steps, I commit to meeting the noble Lord, Lord Wills—not immediately but as things progress—so that our feet can be held to the fire to see whether steps can be taken to reflect what lies behind this and further to improve the significant steps forward we have made.

On behalf of the Government I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wills, for raising the profile of this important issue and for his valuable input, which is welcomed. I hope he will accept my assurance that the Government will continue to ensure that bereaved families and injured persons are central to the inquest and inquiry processes and that their voices will not be ignored.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister feel that the role of the advocate to the inquiry could be closely used to adopt many of the points required by those who support this Bill?

Legal Aid

Debate between Lord Woolf and Lord Faulks

Thursday 10th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate, with significant contributions from a number of noble Lords, covering not just legal aid but our system of justice as a whole. I am afraid that in the time available to me I will not be able to cover all the issues but I will, I hope, at least respond to a number of the points that have been particularly highlighted.

I begin by joining in the tributes to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, for introducing this debate so well. This is not the first time that he has decorated the House in debates of this nature. His knowledge is considerable and he approaches the subject with great passion.

I also join the noble Lord, Lord Bach, in expressing my, and the Government’s, commitment to the principles of maintaining and ensuring access to justice. I wish him and his colleagues good fortune and wisdom in their approach to their significant task, and we look forward to hearing the results of their endeavours. Of course, the Ministry of Justice remains receptive to all constructive and innovative ideas which can assist in providing access to justice. The noble Lord indicated the nature of those who might be joining him on that commission. I hope that he will also include members of the public and taxpayers, who may not have quite the same identity of interest as those with legal experience in this issue. I hope also that there will be no shirking from an analysis of the cost of any proposals, because it is vital that one does not consider these matters in the abstract. If, for example, the suggestion is that the Government—whatever Government—should spend £1 billion more on access to justice, that should be identified.

The noble Lord, Lord Marks, made a number of suggestions about improving access which did not restrict themselves entirely to simply increasing the cost of legal aid. Of course, they are all valuable, and indeed some of them were foreshadowed in the Liberal Democrat manifesto.

The LASPO changes were fundamental. They reduced the cost of legal aid from more than £2 billion to £1.6 billion a year—a significant reduction. Inevitably, some results will have been certainly less than optimal. However, the Government consider that legal aid remains a vital element in our justice system and, although these comparisons are difficult because of the different nature of justice systems, we believe that we have a generous system at £1.6 billion a year.

The challenges that the coalition Government faced when they came into power were considerable and, in their view, it was necessary to reduce the amount of spending. The country’s finances have, to a significant extent, been put back on course, although there is still a great deal to be done in that connection. We remain of the view that, if possible, cases should be diverted away from court and court proceedings, and sometimes away from lawyers, where suitable alternatives are available, and that court, although an important and indeed vital part of a civilised society, should be the last resort rather than the first. We do not shirk from the fact that we think that those who benefit from the civil legal aid scheme should have a strong connection to the United Kingdom. That is why we remain committed to the residence test and are now planning the next steps following the success of the Government in the challenge in the Court of Appeal. We welcome a great deal of the work done by the noble Lord, Lord Low, in his reports. They are of great assistance to policymakers, as I hope I have acknowledged in the past; I continue to do so. We recognise the importance of advice being available in all sorts of contexts.

Criminal legal aid has undoubtedly suffered in terms of remuneration for lawyers. The Government are well aware of the concerns expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, about the possible damage to careers and the prospect, in due course, of a reduction in the quality of criminal judges. I acknowledge that. In fact, there is no reduction in the availability of legal aid to defendants, but I think the issue was that the career structure is so unattractive that this will diminish in the long term the quality of those involved in what is, I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, probably the most important part of the legal system. However, the Bar cannot be entirely immune from the need to reduce legal aid expenditure, but the Government remain committed to maintaining a vibrant and independent Bar and decided in June 2015 not to proceed with the planned reduction in advocacy fees, as we made clear in a Written Ministerial Statement.

Changes in the criminal process, which were heralded by the report from Lord Justice Leveson and the observations by Sir Bill Jeffrey, will, I hope, result in greater efficiency and a reduction in the costs of court processes generally, without diminishing in any way—enhancing, indeed—what we recognise as criminal justice. As for civil legal aid, the result of LASPO has undoubtedly been an increase in the number of litigants in person, but litigants in person have always been a feature, to some extent, of the legal system. The question of employment tribunal fees was specifically raised by the noble Lord, Lord Low. A review of employment tribunal fees was announced in June last year and will be published in due course. It will consider how effective the introduction of the fees has been in meeting what was the original objective, which was to deter inappropriate and frivolous claims. It is important that those who have genuine disputes should be able to bring them to court.

The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, mentioned the question of exceptional funding. Over time, the Legal Aid Agency has, in fact, granted ever more applications for exceptional funding. In fact, these have increased every quarter. I accept that the forms were originally probably less than clear: they have been changed. In the most recent quarter for which we have data there was a grant rate of 35%, a considerable increase on the figure mentioned by the noble Baroness and the highest number since the scheme began. Mr Justice Collins decided that the existing scheme as it was administered was unlawful; that is subject to appeal. However, in the mean time the Government brought forward a statutory instrument to amend the provisions, which makes it much easier to obtain exceptional funding.

The main burden of the debate could be said to be that it is time the Government looked again at the fall-out from LASPO. We committed to look at those results within three to five years. Noble Lords may be aware of what the Permanent Secretary at the Ministry of Justice said to the Justice Committee on Tuesday 13 October, which was that we were enjoined to do a post-implementation review of LASPO and that we would do it at the front end of the period rather than the latter end. Discussions are going on as to whether to run the various reviews together.

He also wrote to tell the committee about three projects being undertaken in respect of civil legal aid. One, Varying Paths to Justice, was a large-scale qualitative research project examining how people seek to resolve civil, administrative and family justice problems. The second, a survey of not-for-profit legal advice providers in England and Wales, will provide an indication of how advice providers in the sector have been affected by legal aid—a number of noble Lords mentioned the importance of the not-for-profit sector; I entirely accept that. The third is the initial findings from the legal problems resolution survey on the prevalence of civil justice problems in England and Wales, which will be published early in 2016.

I hope that we will be able to provide a response—assisted, no doubt, by the commission of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, although the timings may not precisely coincide—to some of the matters that have arisen from LASPO. The purpose of LASPO was, of course, to reduce the cost of legal aid and to try to focus legal aid where it was most needed, in the most important cases. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, has been a consistent critic of the effect of the lack of legal aid in social welfare cases and I understand this concern, but I think he and the House would agree that not all problems that come from social welfare difficulties— particularly debt, for example—are best approached by lawyers. That is not to undervalue the lawyers’ contribution, but lawyers, at whatever hourly rate they charge, may not be the best people to sort out, for example, the many debt problems that beset those people who have social welfare problems.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the question of the process for solicitors’ legal aid contracts. There was criticism from the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Cotter, of the whole process by which such contracts are obtained. This process is the subject both of litigation in respect of the procurement process itself and also judicial review in respect of those contracts. It would not be appropriate for me to go into much detail about that, save to say that the Ministry of Justice, as I have said previously from this Dispatch Box, is satisfied that the process was fair and will maintain that in court. The noble Lord, Lord Cotter, returned to an issue he has raised in this House before about a geographical problem with solicitors being outside of a necessary area. I can tell him and the House that bidders would be required to have, or commit to have, an office in the relevant area where the work was delivered. That would be a matter taken into account.

The Law Society acknowledged that there was a need for some consolidation. Fortunately, the crime rate has dropped and the process was undertaken in a way that we think was appropriate to make sure that taxpayers’ money was well spent but that, nevertheless, there could be access to the duty solicitor scheme. Of course, solicitors will still be able to have the own-client system and they will be able to provide, as agency providers, services that they have hitherto provided.

Litigants in person are undoubtedly a feature of the current system, but a number of initiatives have been undertaken; and not simply pro bono, although I entirely endorse the importance of the pro bono sector and the valuable work done by solicitors and barristers in this connection. There is support taking place across England and Wales; for example, the LawWorks clinics network, which provides a local face-to-face and telephone advice service for litigants in person, predominantly in the area of social welfare law. The network has continued to grow and has 220 legal advice clinics in England and Wales, supported by volunteer solicitors, barristers, trainees and law students. That is just one example of the strategy in action across England and Wales to support litigants in person. There is also a national campaign launched this autumn to raise awareness of the help available to litigants. Postcards and posters will be distributed widely.

The strategy is not of course the only answer. There are numerous schemes going on nationally and also at a local level. I heard about some of these developments at the Civil Justice Council’s fourth National Forum on Access to Justice for Litigants in Person, which I attended last Friday. It was well attended by representatives from across the justice system and I was struck by the level of expertise, experience and enthusiasm shown by delegates to maintain the momentum that has been building for litigants in person.

Much has been done in this process. A simple rule change—rule 3.1A—is helping in this regard. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, was unfair to himself in suggesting that the CPR had not been a total success. In many ways it improved a great deal the system which prevailed under the rules of the Supreme Court—the predecessor of the civil procedure rule. With respect, he is right that it has not prevented disputes being very expensive. Certainly, the reforms that we intend to bring forward in our civil justice system, using the increasing availability of technology and reducing the number of court hearings, will build on those reforms. Rule 3.1A, on “case management—unrepresented parties” will encourage judges when dealing with litigants in person to use language and a way of dealing with them which is wholly different from the way it was used before. Simple illustrations were given at the meeting to which I went that the terminology is mysterious. What is an appellant? What is a respondent? Ordinary language will help. In the new climate that we live in it was encouraging to see so many judges attending this civil justice forum who deal with litigants—

[Lord Woolf]

I am very grateful for the comments made by the noble Lord. What about Latin?

[Lord Faulks]

We are very much discouraged from using Latin in any context now, although I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord would agree that it is remarkable that when you are told not to use Latin, it becomes almost irresistible to use it and somehow will only serve as the correct way. It is very much a thing of the past, I think.