Higher Education and Research Bill

Lord Willis of Knaresborough Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 8th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I think that my noble friend is making an assumption that 20% represents bronze. The gold, silver and bronze system is a good thing and we should look at it positively. For example, if a new provider opens its doors, as it were, after three years and is already at the bronze level, with the opportunity to go up to silver and gold, surely that has to be a positive thing, and it is also something that students from here and abroad can look at.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD)]

Does the Minister accept that he is missing one of the key points of this debate? A university is made up of a whole host of different departments that contribute to teaching. There may be one lecturer who is excellent but in the next department there may be a lecturer who is pretty poor. You cannot classify all the staff in an institution simply on the basis of a gold, silver or bronze rating. Students apply for courses within those institutions and, unless a course has some badge of honour in terms of its teaching, we will be missing the point altogether. This is about people; it is not simply about institutions.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I respect the noble Lord’s experience. We have had discussions outside the Chamber about the data aspect and I will be coming on to speak about the data and about how the assessments are made. I would argue that this is not just looking at the high levels—the gold, silver and bronze—

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Moved by

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

100A: After Clause 37, in subsection (1)(c), leave out “may” and insert “must”

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

I thank the Minister for Amendment 100. We had a quick gloss over this the other day, and I sought a device to bring Amendment 100 back because in our heady and heavy discussions, sometimes we have lost sight of the other side of higher education and, in particular, of students who are working part-time and the significant number of students who drop out of higher education. Every year, approximately 8% of students drop out of their courses; for some courses the figure is as high as 30%. I am doing some work on nursing degrees, and research is showing that as many as 35% of students start a degree but do not finish it. That is a huge waste of talent. Some of those people—albeit very few of them—come back to complete their degrees, but the whole system in the UK is very much geared against that. If you fail, you fail: that is the maxim throughout our education system. It applies at GCSE and A-levels and certainly at university.

The Government are to be hugely congratulated on Amendment 100 which, for the very first time, accepts that this is a real issue. One of the problems is that if students are on the wrong course, how do they transfer to another one, particularly one at another university? Students often enter vocational degrees later in life, and there are changes in their lives. A student marries, or their partner needs to move for their career, so the student needs to go to another institution to complete their studies, and there is a host of problems in doing that. Very few institutions have a robust, well-advertised, student-friendly system whereby students can leave and come back, or leave and go to another university.

The trouble is that we have a higher education system that prizes its autonomy above everything else. It is one of the great strengths of our education system. In the short time I have been in your Lordships’ House and the time I was in the other place, I have seen nothing excite people more, be they MPs or Peers, than attacks on the higher education system. Everyone comes out, as your Lordships have seen this afternoon.

I want to make sure that we do something about it when students, for whatever reason—sometimes it is for personal reasons; sometimes it is because they are just not coping with the course—drop out of the system. The first step is to make sure you have a robust system whereby students know they can transfer somewhere else if they are not succeeding, or if they drop out, they can either return or transfer somewhere else if they need to. Amendment 100 deals with a lot of those issues, but the Government have slightly let us down here—I say “slightly” because I very much support what they are trying to do. New subsection (1)(a) says that the Office for Students “must monitor the availability”, while new subsection (1)(b) says that it,

“must include in its annual report a summary of conclusions drawn … for the financial year”.

But when it comes to the vital part—ensuring that universities have robust systems in place to enable students to arrange transfers—the amendment brings in the word “may”. New subsection (1)(c) says that the OfS,

“may facilitate, encourage, or promote awareness”.

Your Lordships know full well what “may” means—it basically means you do not have to do it. That is the problem with this.

The previous Labour Government, in 2009, brought in some similar regulations, which were advisory. The current Government, to their credit, did a piece of research in summer last year on what was happening with student transfer in various universities. I read the results, which were published in December, and they were hugely disappointing. It is not this Government’s fault, the previous Government’s fault or the previous Labour Government’s fault. The reality is that this is not taken seriously by most universities. I have the most enormous regard for the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, but we had a slight spat in Committee when I said that the Russell group universities were the worst offenders. I stick by that, although in actual fact I do not know. She took me to task, but the reality is that she does not know either, as they do not publish anything to back up the case.

Through Amendment 100A, I want to change the word “may” to “must”, so that the Office for Students must facilitate, must encourage and must promote awareness of the provision of arrangements. Universities would then have to have a system, because that system would be reported back to the OfS and would appear in the annual report. It is a very simple change. I am sure that the Minister, in his wisdom and in his love and affection for all that is happening in the higher education system, will agree to this very small amendment, which would make a huge difference to the very significant number of students who, for whatever reason, drop out. We want them back.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment for all the good reasons that he has given. In addition, given that the Government are making provision for some providers to fail, it is important that measures are in place for students to have records of the credits they have accumulated from their studies, so that they are best placed to find an alternative provider without going back to the start and can get credit for partial awards they have achieved. I know that even in the days of the polytechnics, with their single validator, the CNAA, it was not always straightforward for students to take their credits from one polytechnic to the other; with different and varied providers, it will be even less straightforward. It is a time-consuming process, as providers need to be able to match the credits from an organisation to bring them across into their own systems. But it is still well worth doing, and the Bill could help by making it mandatory for institutions to set up systems to,

“facilitate, encourage, or promote awareness of … arrangements … for student transfers”.

Changing this one word, “may” to “must”, should enable that to happen.

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the Government take the views of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, on student transfer very seriously, and I have appreciated the short discussions I have had with him. This is why, as we discussed on Monday, we have proposed Amendments 100, 139 and 141. I appreciate the warm words expressed on our amendments by the noble Lord, albeit they were perhaps rather lukewarm on Amendment 100.

The new clause will place a duty on the OfS to monitor arrangements put in place by registered higher education providers to enable students to transfer within or between providers and monitor the take-up of those arrangements. Furthermore, the OfS will have a duty to report annually on its findings. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay said, the government amendment will also enable the OfS to facilitate, encourage or promote awareness of arrangements for student transfer, so that the OfS can help ensure students understand the options for changing course or institution and so that best practice is promoted among higher education providers.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Willis, for his Amendment 100A, which reflects the importance he attaches to this issue. It is well intentioned, and we have genuinely considered it. However, given the Government’s assessment of the evidence of barriers to student transfer, it is not desirable to adopt the amendment, some of the reasons for which were put rather eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. Such an approach would reduce the flexibility available to the OfS as it develops its understanding, particularly through its monitoring, and could be overprescriptive, burdensome and interfere with institutions’ autonomy.

The government amendment will achieve our shared aims without interfering with or overly mandating how the OfS responds to its findings on student transfer, so, with respect, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this brief debate. It was certainly worth raising the issue. In particular, I thank my noble friend Lady Garden for her support. I never like to disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, because he is usually right on this matter. The reason I wanted a “must” is that otherwise, this issue will go into the long grass. I hope I am wrong and that the Office for Students, when it reports, will be able to keep a close eye on what is happening. That will be the real test.

I listened with interest to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. Again, I was disappointed, because I value her comments enormously. It saddens me that we are unable in this country to adopt what we see working incredibly well in the States, particularly with community colleges, where with sufficient credits students can move to Ivy League universities where they show real talent. We seem to have a silo-based higher education system, and this was an attempt to move away from that and ensure that all learning gained in higher education systems can be accredited and used as a credit for further learning. With those few comments, I thank the House for listening, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 100A (to Amendment 100) withdrawn.