Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Viscount Younger of Leckie

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I too welcome the amendment. I apologise for taking so little part in the Bill’s progress since participating at Second Reading. This intermittent pattern has been due largely to being stretched on Brexit matters across many different committees and calls.

I support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, on the devolution situation. The position in Wales is different from that in Scotland because of the different natures of the devolution Acts—no doubt the Minister is well aware of those. However, similar issues can arise, particularly in the contexts of agriculture, procurement and competition law. Those areas are sensitive and there are strong feelings in the devolved regimes on the powers they can exercise. No doubt many other issues will arise.

I do not think that we can answer this matter by strict legislation. The most important thing by far is the attitude of Governments towards dealing with each other. It is important that, when issues arise and are flagged up at this end, something is done early enough to get a constructive response from Cardiff or Edinburgh. Likewise, it is important that the devolved regimes are encouraged to flag up issues that arise, and that there is a mechanism to deal with them before they become polarised and unnecessarily political. To that extent, I believe that most of the work on this will have to be undertaken on a day by day, month by month basis after the legislation comes into force. Having said that, I support the amendment.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, for moving Amendment 8 and for our fruitful discussions since Report, together with the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who is not in his place at the moment. I hope to provide some extra clarity on the interaction between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations.

It might help if I summarise my understanding of the amendment’s purpose. It would require the Government to seek the consent of the devolved Administrations when making regulations under Clauses 1 and 2. As we have said, it is the Government’s intention always to consult and seek the consent of the devolved Administrations when exercising the powers in this Bill in areas of devolved competence. We want to form a trade policy that works for the whole of the UK. However, there are good reasons why we do not want to amend the Trade Bill either to extend the operation of the Sewel convention or to replicate the recent amendment to the healthcare Bill, as proposed by the noble Lord.

Let me just touch on the Healthcare Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, suggested during the debate on this issue on Report, on 13 March, that a recent amendment to the Bill strengthened the case for what is being proposed here. However, there is a significant difference, both between the powers in the two Bills and between the texts of the two amendments.

First, the concurrent powers in the Trade Bill allow for devolved Administrations themselves to legislate in areas of devolved competence. As mentioned last week, should the UK Government use the powers of the Trade Bill to legislate for the whole of the UK, it will be for the purposes of legislative efficiency, following consultation with the devolved Administrations. The Healthcare Bill does not provide for this: it does not delegate any powers to devolved Administrations. Introducing consultation requirements in lieu of a power for the devolved Administrations to legislate for themselves is understandable—but this clearly is not the case for the Trade Bill.

Secondly, the amendment to the Healthcare Bill introduced a requirement to consult the devolved Administrations, whereas Amendment 8 would require the UK Government to secure the consent of the relevant devolved Administration before legislating in areas of devolved competence. As is well recognised in your Lordships’ House, to “consult” and to “secure consent” are very different concepts.

I turn to the Scotland and Wales Acts, which already enshrine the Sewel convention in legislation. I am happy to restate this Government’s continued commitment to this convention in relation to all future primary legislation. However, it has been suggested that this amendment would put regulations under the Trade Bill in the same position as Westminster primary legislation under the Scotland and Wales Acts. It must be recognised that those provisions were passed in a very different context and in recognition of an accepted political convention relating to primary legislation. Moreover, as the Supreme Court has recognised, those provisions were carefully worded in a way that demonstrated Parliament’s clear intention that they should not be justiciable.

This amendment, however, goes further by effectively proposing an extension of this convention to apply to secondary legislation. It does so in a way that does not reflect the language of the Scotland and Wales Acts provisions, which would risk making the term “not normally” into a legal test. As I stated on Report, I do not believe that it is the intention of this House to introduce new legal uncertainty to our statute book—especially when that could ultimately obstruct the programme of continuity that this Bill seeks to deliver, to the detriment of the UK as a whole.

I would like to touch now on Section 12 of the EU withdrawal Act and its interplay with the Trade Bill.

[Lord Wigley]

Does the Minister accept that the problem as seen from the devolved regimes is that, very often, consultation does not amount to very much indeed? That is why the word “consent” is very much more powerful. If consultation was something that was driven with the intention of having a meeting of minds, rather than just sending a message down and forgetting about it, there might be a better chance of getting that form of words to be applicable.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The word “consultation” is well known and well respected. I would like to pick up on what the noble Lord said earlier about the fact that there is much interaction, and consultation, going on; and it generally works very well. I would also like to say how well it has worked in respect of Wales. It is a term that is well recognised and works well.

Turning back to Section 12, I am aware of the letter from the Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary, Mike Russell, which noble Lords have referred to in earlier exchanges and which raises a specific concern in the third paragraph about the effect of Section 12 regulations on the Scottish Government’s ability to exercise powers in the Trade Bill. I am disappointed that, unlike the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government have not seen fit to recommend consent to the Trade Bill. I would like to make it clear that any frameworks-related restrictions on the devolved Administrations’ use of the powers apply only if a Section 12 regulation is first in place.

Due to the collaborative and constructive work that is taking place to establish UK common frameworks once we leave the EU, the UK Government have not yet identified a need to bring forward any Section 12 regulations. The Government have committed to work with the devolved Administrations in the preparation of any Section 12 regulations that would maintain existing frameworks. This was set out in the Inter-governmental Agreement on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and the Establishment of Common Frameworks, which ensures that those regulations are subject to scrutiny by the devolved legislatures and the UK Parliament.

In addition, I can reassure your Lordships that, were a Section 12 regulation in place that would restrict the power of the devolved Administrations to use Clauses 1 and 2, the Government’s commitment always to consult would remain. As we have repeatedly said, the UK Government remain committed to the principle of not legislating in devolved areas without seeking the agreement of the respective devolved Administrations. The UK Government have been working productively and collaboratively with the devolved Administrations on a number of fronts, including the development of common frameworks. As a result of this work, the UK Government and the devolved Administrations recently agreed to this joint statement:

“On the basis of the significant joint progress on future frameworks, and the continued collaboration to ensure the statute book is ready for exit day, the UK Government has concluded that it does not need to bring forward any section 12 regulations at this juncture.


On this basis, the Scottish and Welsh Governments continue to commit to not diverging in ways that would cut across future frameworks, where it has been agreed they are necessary or where discussions continue.


UK Government officials are working with devolved administration officials to revise the Common Frameworks analysis and take into account progress on framework areas since March 2018. We anticipate publishing a further iteration of this analysis shortly”.


To conclude, I hope that I have demonstrated that the amendment is unnecessary. The Government are committed to not normally using the powers in the Trade Bill to legislate in areas of devolved competence without the consent of the relevant devolved Administration—and certainly not without first consulting them. I believe that this is proportionate and appropriate to the powers as they currently stand, which have received consent from the National Assembly for Wales, as I said earlier. If passed, this amendment would depart significantly from this. I therefore ask that Amendment 8 be withdrawn.

Gambling Advertising

Debate between Lord Wigley and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

As I said, we believe that the voluntary approach is right. The Committees of Advertising Practice and the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice rightly maintain the advertising codes. The rules are, of course, enforced by the Advertising Standards Authority.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, over the past 12 months, the Minister and fellow Ministers have on numerous occasions indicated that government policy is to reduce the exposure of young people to gambling advertising. What evidence can he give to the House that he is having any success whatever with that objective?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can some give some evidence. The number of gambling advertisements seen on TV by children and 16 to 24 year-olds rose until 2013 and has declined each year since.

Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Wigley and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the purpose of this order, as the Minister stated, is to transfer to Welsh Ministers executive functions currently exercised by the Minister of the Crown in areas where legislative competence is exercised by the National Assembly for Wales or has been devolved to the Assembly by virtue of the Wales Act 2017. It has 47 articles and two schedules, so it is impossible to go into all the detail, and I do not think we would expect the Minister to be able to do that either.

The order transfers a wide range of functions to Welsh Ministers in relation to, for example, agriculture, environmental protection, education, health, compulsory purchase orders and planning. Of course, I welcome that objective. However, my friends in the other place and indeed in the Assembly have grave reservations that the Wales Act 2017 largely fails to fulfil its own objectives. The 2017 Act suffers from two fatal flaws: it is a piece of legislation that has been both poorly conceived and poorly drafted, which results in failing to deliver a reserved powers model of devolution, as was originally intended. Indeed, it provides a system of devolution that not only is as cumbersome as its predecessors but is, in some important ways, even more restrictive and frustrating. In drawing up the list of those issues that will be reserved to London, Whitehall departments seem to have seized on every opportunity to reserve every power they might conceivably ever need in relation to Wales. Reservations have been piled on reservations to create a final schedule that is sprawling and lacking in any coherent logic. But even that was not enough for Whitehall. Just in case it had forgotten anything, the Act also reserved everything that “relates to” the list of reservation, thus further extending its reach.

It is for those reasons that my colleagues voted against the Bill both in the other place and the National Assembly. The ink had barely dried on the Wales Act 2017 before my colleagues were vindicated in these misgivings. The Welsh Government’s Trade Union (Wales) Bill, which was within the Assembly’s competence under the Assembly’s conferred powers model, covered industrial relations within the devolved public sector, but a signal arrived from the UK Government that the reserved powers model might be used rigidly to police what we in Wales cannot do when it comes to such legislation. While nothing eventually came from those UK government threats, the notion of Westminster overruling Welsh decisions became even more apparent.

Regarding the order that we are discussing today, of course its provisions may be partly repealed through the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, so I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that and confirmation on whether that process may happen. Brexit is exposing the weaknesses of the UK constitution, which is unfit for purpose in many ways and is lopsided and overcentralised. Many of the provisions in front of us today concern subject matters that may, in part, fall under the 24 areas that the UK Government have identified for legislative common frameworks and, therefore, are more likely to be affected by protection built into the EU withdrawal Bill as amended by this House last week. I understand that, until we have a clear indication from the Government how widely the proposed regulations will be drafted, or indeed how far the common frameworks that replace them will restrict the devolved policy areas with which the EU common frameworks currently interact, it might be difficult to say whether the provisions in this order will or will not be repealed, but the principle matters, particularly in relation to agriculture, fisheries and environmental functions. This will lead to ongoing uncertainty, which hinders good government. I certainly do not oppose the order, but I must warn the House that, inevitably, we shall be asked to return to these matters.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate and thank them for their broad welcome for the transfer of functions order. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, described it as coherent governance for the principality—which is praise indeed, perhaps. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, stated that it was a milestone. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was probably less generous in his praise, but he said broadly that he would not oppose it—to that extent, perhaps, that is progress.

I shall attempt to answer the questions that were raised. On teachers’ pay and conditions, which the noble Lords, Lord Griffiths and Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked about, the first thing to say is that of course it is very much up to Ministers in Wales to decide the future level of pay and conditions. As the House may know, the Welsh Government are currently consulting on the future mechanism for teachers’ pay and conditions once the functions are transferred, so I cannot really comment any further. It is up to Ministers in Wales to decide in future, and hopefully that will have a good conclusion.

The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, asked about Milford Haven. I agree with him that the port of Milford Haven is very important not just for Wales but for the United Kingdom. As he said, Milford Haven remains a reserved trust port, but the UK Government will continue to work closely with the Welsh Government and local communities, as they do now. However, it has to remain reserved and we do not envisage any change in terms of its role. It is much valued.

The subject of the EU was raised by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Griffiths and Lord Wigley, and there was a specific question, which I will address, from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. The frameworks are intended to capture only functions that are currently exercised at an EU level to ensure that the UK internal market continues to operate effectively once we have left the EU. Our preliminary analysis, published in March, sets out where frameworks may or may not be needed in respect of the 64 policy areas where EU law intersects with the Welsh devolution settlement. This analysis indicates that frameworks will be needed, in whole or in part, in only a small number of areas—those areas which we believe are vital to the efficient functioning of the UK internal market. The powers transferred through this order are currently exercised by Ministers of the Crown, not the EU, and will not form part of future UK frameworks.

The specific question that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, raised was about the mechanism. There will be no need for orders transferring EU powers, as the approach agreed by this House in what is now Clause 15 of the Bill devolves powers by default. The UK Government will bring forward regulations to identify areas where we need statutory UK frameworks. I hope that helps answer those questions.

Nuclear Energy: Small Modular Reactor

Debate between Lord Wigley and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 12th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The main focus of my noble friend’s question was the siting of SMRs, which is certainly being looked at with great care. The picture is complex, and the House will have to be patient in understanding that there is an awful lot to consider in where the SMRs might be sited and the funding for them. To take up his point about Hinkley Point, and perhaps other nuclear facilities, it could well be sensible initially to site the SMRs in or around the larger nuclear capabilities, for all kinds of good reasons.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand that the ongoing delays with the SMR decision are not only critical to the companies involved but to possible locations for the SMRs. For example, the Trawsfynydd location, which has been decommissioned for 20 years, has been identified as a possible location for SMRs, but that brings in a planning blight for other developments while this is still in mid-air. Please can the Government make progress?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

We are aware of the interest in Wales as regards that particular siting. However, as I said earlier, a decision has not been made on where the sites might be. Perhaps I can reassure the noble Lord that as much as possible is being done to look at the early rolling-out of the SMRs, but it is a complex matter.