Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Report stage & Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I am glad to add my name to those who have spoken in support of Amendment 24 and, yes, we have been here before many times over recent months. Clearly, I totally support the principle that trade agreements should be acceptable to devolved Governments—they may not have a veto, but that acceptance should be sought. The opposition and the reservations of the devolved Governments to the recent European agreement should be a timely reminder to the UK Government of the importance of securing that sort of consensus.

I have some reservations about the adequacy of both this amendment and of the Bill as it stands in meeting the needs of the Welsh Government, so I will pose a question to the Minister. If there were a UK agreement with New Zealand for the import of lamb in terms that would undermine Welsh hill farmers, what safeguards are in the Bill as it currently stands? If the Minister believes that this amendment is unnecessary, will he please tell me how the Bill as it stands meets such worries and how he can persuade the House and the Welsh Government of that fact?

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to say a few words on Amendment 24, which I support, moved by my noble friend Lord Stevenson. Like the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I am concerned about the position of Welsh lamb, as I come from a family that has been breeding them for centuries now and continues so to do in three counties in Wales. If there were any barrier, inhibition or taxation on its export, it would ruin the hill farmers of Wales.

I am surprised that my noble friend had to table the amendment at all. I welcome what is devolved very much. I repeat what I have said many times: what is devolved is devolved and cannot be withdrawn without primary legislation. Proposed new subsections (2), (4) and (5) concern me. One of the side-effects of the coronavirus pandemic is a wake-up call to Whitehall that there are four Governments in the United Kingdom as far as health is concerned. I wish there had been more fruitful dialogue between Whitehall and each of the devolved Governments so that there was more uniformity. It was not to be, and I respect the decisions of the Welsh Government on matters entirely within their competence. I support the amendment.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 8th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I very much agree with previous speakers on this group of amendments and support Amendment 18, to which I have added my name and, in the absence of my good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, would be happy to move it, were that to be appropriate, if the Government were unwilling to move in that direction or to adopt an amendment moving in that direction.

Amendment 18 might be seen by some colleagues as being the more extreme option within this group, which seeks greater tolerance around the mean number of electors per constituency. That amendment applies only to Wales, and I appreciate the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Grocott. All referred to the challenging situation in rural Wales. It is therefore perfectly in order for noble Lords to support the smaller variations around the mean in England or Scotland, if they so choose, and I support their amendments seeking greater flexibility there. However, the imposition of still further flexibility in Wales can be taken on board because it does not change the number of seats allocated to Wales, merely the distribution within it. As has been stated, this would allow greater flexibility in respecting natural communities, geographic sparsity and ease of travel.

Wales should have at least 36 parliamentary seats but that is not the issue at stake in Amendment 18. It gives the Boundary Commission for Wales greater flexibility, if it chooses to use it, to respond to the topography and communities of Wales. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, suggested, constraining them into a straitjacket imposed by Westminster is not helpful. I urge the Government to accept this amendment or at least table an amendment of their own to meet these pressing arguments.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Hayter in her amendment and have added my name to the important amendment for Wales of my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, Amendment 18. I encourage them to press it to a vote. I shall not repeat the case that they made in Committee. However, the figure of 35 Members from Wales has been sacrosanct for decades in my long political career. Specifically, can the Minister say when that principle was breached in the past? Please give me the year. There may be one but it stands out as an exception.

The only matter that I wish to emphasise is that travel in south Wales is from north to south, down the valleys, and infrequently across mountains from east to west, mentioned by my noble friends Lord Grocott and Lady Hayter. My constituency for 41 years bordered that of my noble friend Lord Hain to the west. I can count on one hand the number of times that I went on political business to his constituency. Likewise, the Maesteg part of the Bridgend constituency to the east met mine on the top of a mountain. I probably went to that constituency less than half a dozen times, although many constituents from there came to work in mine. That demonstrates that the travel direction in Wales is north to south, not east to west, and that is the community interest.

The reduction in the number of Welsh seats now proposed would cause havoc in the make-up of south Wales seats, be a massive reorganisation and break up long-standing ties. The Brecon and Radnorshire constituency has been mentioned as one example where there should be special consideration. Coming from a family of sheep breeders, I enjoyed campaigning there and seeing the sheep of Breconshire. However, I travelled 40 or 50 miles there not looking for sheep but for voters—and towns, of which there are few and they are far apart. I pray in aid what Sir Alfred Mond, founder of Mond Nickel and ICI, and the MP for the old Carmarthenshire seat, once said. He later became the first Lord Melchett and his statue is in Pontardawe. He said that Carmarthen is not a constituency but a continent. The same could be said of Brecon and Radnorshire, and other large seats. There should be some flexibility and the number of seats in Wales should not stand at the figure now proposed.