Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Hain

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I welcome this measure. Before going into any detail, I welcome the noble Baroness to her Front-Bench post; we wish her well. We know that she has a tremendous interest in Wales, and I am sure she will stand up for Wales when there are battles that need to be fought. She has a challenging role in following the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who undertook his responsibilities in an exemplary manner and gained the respect of the whole House. I wish her as much success as he had in fighting Wales’s corner, which can sometimes be an uphill struggle.

I listened carefully to the Minister’s introduction. It explained why the reaction in Wales I was getting was that these powers had already been identified as coming to us, or indeed had already come. The difficulties that have previously been experienced have been met by this order. As the presiding officer, the Welsh Government and the Assembly welcome the order, I of course support it this evening. However, the way the difficulties were addressed by the 2018 provisions underlines the complexity of the devolution model in Wales, with some things being devolved and others reserved. That mixture can lead to the sort of complications we are putting right tonight. It underlines the need for a clear-cut devolution model whereby things are either wholly with Wales or not, with no grey area that can lead to difficulties.

The 2006 Act, which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, was mainly responsible for getting through, was a very significant step forward in its day. I have previously congratulated the noble Lord on getting it through Cabinet, the House of Commons and this House. However, I think he would be the first to admit that requiring an order every time the National Assembly was going to legislate in every function—an order that could be blocked by a resolution in the House of Commons or by the unelected House of Lords—was not ideal. We have moved on from that, but we seem to have a little hangover from that period in the context of what we are discussing tonight.

Finally, that whole subject has a certain resonance for me. I am present in this Chamber only because of that model. As a party, we had never taken seats in the House of Lords. We changed that at the invitation of and under pressure from the Government of the day because, as we saw it—I think rightly at that time—it was quite invidious that the unelected House of Lords could block by order a legislative requirement of the elected Government of Wales. That is why I came here. That is why we were promised at that time that we would have three people in this Chamber—a promise that was never fulfilled by either Government. That may resonate in Wales tonight.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the points the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made. I too welcome the Minister to her role. I stress that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, leaves big shoes to fill, because he spoke on Wales with an intuitive understanding and empathy from his long political experience. Despite our party differences, he spoke with real authority and I thought he was an exceptionally good Minister in this House. I wish the noble Baroness all the best in following that model.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Hain

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 5th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Hain

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad): House of Lords
Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for introducing this amendment. As far as it goes, I support it, but I shall take up a point that was made a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, from the Liberal Front Bench that trade agreements will certainly need not just consultation with, but the agreement of, the devolved authorities. Let us think of, for example, the trade in lamb in Wales and how basic it is to the rural Welsh economy. Pressure is coming from New Zealand, which is threatening to block movement in the international trade discussions on these matters. If New Zealand were pressing for certain agreements that would undermine our Welsh lamb sector, that would be devastating. The devolved authority has responsibility for economic development, agriculture and rural affairs in Wales. That is an example from Wales. I can well imagine examples from Scotland, such as in the whisky sector. There should be more than just consultation. As I said at Second Reading, there should be a requirement for statutory agreement, a statutory endorsement by the devolved authorities in these areas. It may not be necessary in all areas, but there are certainly some where it is needed.

Therefore, between now and Report I hope there will be an opportunity to explore this area more in conjunction with the devolved Administrations to make sure that at this stage, before a specific difficulty arises, these matters are thought through because when a difficulty does arise, the tension builds up and it becomes a battle of attrition. We need a system that avoids that, and now is the time to get the system right.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for coming into the Chamber just a couple of minutes into my noble friend Lord Stevenson’s speech. I hope that it is in order to continue to make a brief contribution.

I follow the speeches of my noble friend Lord Wigley and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, as well as that of my noble friend Lord Stevenson, in saying that it is vital that, particularly in respect of the devolved Administrations— I speak as a former Secretary of State for Wales and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—we do not see an action replay of what we saw earlier in this whole fiasco. I am talking about a power grab by the Government that repatriated to Westminster powers that had already been devolved but were under the European Union’s aegis. That showed a cast of mind in the Whitehall machine of the Government that I encountered as a Secretary of State, whereby the natural instinct of other departments—particularly Defra and the Home Office, although it went more widely—is to centralise, grasp and keep power, not to devolve it. It is essential that, as the amendment seeks, there is a recognition by Ministers that the natural instinct will be to consult the devolved Governments—and in the case of Northern Ireland, whatever is there; maybe senior civil servants, as now. That should be the immediate instinct of every Minister and every senior official in every government department as they process all this.

My second point relates to paragraph (e) in the amendment, which refers to “appropriate consumer groups” and so on. Will the Government consult the CBI, the FSB, the IoD, the TUC and consumer groups, let alone all the other NGOs that might have an interest? Will that be a natural reflex, as in consulting the devolved Administrations, or will they have to come back in right at the end? I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some reassurance on the record about all that.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Hain

Committee: 9th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

I have no doubt it had difficulty in passing it. None the less, the objective was a very valid one—to address the problems perceived in Scotland with regard to the level of alcohol consumption et cetera. The proposal was supported by many people in the social sector who wanted to see that sort of change. This is arguable, but the point is that you can have different tax regimes within a single market, as you have within the European single market. You can within the UK single market.

[Lord Hain]

I am sure my noble friend will agree with this point. Mention has been made of Scottish whisky—Scottish single malts and so on—but the best single malt in Britain comes from the Penderyn distillery in Wales.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Hain

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain]

If that is the case, as my noble friend has reminded us, then the Government should be supporting this amendment and putting it into statute.

During the referendum campaign in 2016 two former Prime Ministers, Sir John Major and Tony Blair, both of whom made significant contributions to the peace process, gave speeches in Derry/Londonderry, in which they stressed that imposing a hard border between the north and the south of the island of Ireland would threaten the very basis of the peace process and the stability that the island of Ireland has enjoyed. Both have cogently reinforced their case in recent weeks and are as alarmed as any of us privileged to have served as Ministers in Northern Ireland.

There are more crossing points along this 310-mile border than there are along the whole of the EU’s eastern frontier: 257 compared with 137. The border crosses family farms and separates towns and villages from their natural hinterlands. It is both invisible and ever present, both unremarkable and deeply contested. Even the younger generation on both sides of the border associates the very idea of border controls with conflict and collective trauma. As well as the formal movement of goods, there are many services from cross-border medical and pharmaceutical transactions to people and data movements between supply chains north and south and the infrastructure issues: energy, telecoms, air and rail travel, environmental standards and so on. If, as the Prime Minister insists, Brexit means the UK leaving the customs union and the single market—a rules-based legal entity, not just a political agreement—then Brexit would unavoidably mean the introduction of a hard Irish border.

[Lord Wigley]

Is my noble friend aware that the European Parliament has today voted by 554 votes to 110 for a framework agreement that supports seeking UK associate status but that the necessary frictionless trade can be guaranteed only by membership of both the customs union and the single market? That underlines the point he is making.

[Lord Hain]

I understood that this was a proposal being put by, I think, the leader of the European Parliament, Guy Verhofstadt. I am grateful that my noble friend has brought it to the attention of the Committee.

A hard border is one that consists of layers of barriers to movement—that is, tariffs, quotas, bans and regulations—and requires strict conditions and evidence of compliance to cross: declarations, inspections, authorisations, visas and permits. However, while harder borders require greater means of control and management by states, it is not the visibility of a border that determines how hard it is. The experience of a harder border is felt away from the border line in the obstacles faced by an individual or business when seeking to cross it legally to work, trade or operate on the other side. Hard border arrangements therefore threaten the evolution of a successful all-island economy, which is essential to the economic development and long-term prosperity of Northern Ireland.

A combination of the conditions of EU membership and the operation of the 1998 agreement has enabled cross-border economies of scale, supply chains, public service delivery and practical co-operation to flourish. These are particularly essential in areas, such as those in the central border region, which have suffered the consequences of multiple deprivation and conflict.

It is estimated that 30,000 people commute across the border every day. Around 1 million HGVs, more than 1 million vans and 12 million cars move between Northern Ireland and the Republic every year. Northern Ireland is also a vital route to market for goods from the Republic, with the UK acting as a land bridge to markets in the EU 27—some of the goods going through Wales, I might add. Approximately 40% of container movements to or from the island of Ireland go through Northern Ireland.

Also threatened are 142 areas of north-south co-operation that have developed as a result of the implementation of the 1998 agreement. These range from an all-island regime for animal health and welfare to shared infrastructure and emergency healthcare planning and provision. They bring direct benefits to people on both sides of the border, and much of this co-operation relies on regulatory alignment across it. For example, Dublin Airport is the main entry and exit point for air travel for Northern Ireland, around half of whose residents use it for holiday travel. Brexit will also require a new aviation agreement between the UK and EU member states if there is not to be disruption to flights to and from Ireland to the UK.