Welsh Government: Fracking

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Welsh Government regarding the devolution of powers over fracking for gas on land.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, in November 2014 my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales announced a programme of work to seek a political consensus on the way forward for devolution and to provide a stable settlement for Wales. This work is underpinned by discussions with Welsh party leaders, including the First Minister of Wales, the right honourable Carwyn Jones AM.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, may I interpret that Answer as an indication that we can look forward to a Statement being made by the Secretary of State on St David’s Day to indeed confirm a transfer of responsibility for fracking to Wales? Since the Government have their own amendment to the Infrastructure Bill, Amendment 86, on Report in the House of Commons on Monday, removing Scotland from the provisions of that Bill concerning the right to use deep-level land for fracking, why is there not a similar amendment for Wales, if that is indeed the direction in which the Government are going? Will the Minister link up with the department today to see whether it is possible, even at this late stage, to table such an amendment?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord should take into account the process that is under way. The Secretary of State has set great store by the fact that he wants to achieve political consensus across the four parties in Wales. The Welsh Government are involved, of course, and they have made it clear what their views are on the need to offer powers to the Welsh Government if they have been offered to Scotland. However, what is right for Scotland is not necessarily always right for Wales, and discussions are still ongoing.

Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order laid before the House on 5 November 2014 now be considered. I will provide noble Lords with a brief summary of what it seeks to achieve. The UK Government are making this order at the request of the Welsh Government. The National Assembly for Wales is currently considering legislation relating to sustainable development in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Bill. The stated intentions of the Bill are to enhance the sustainable development duty on Welsh Ministers and to make sustainable development the central organising principle of the Welsh Government and of other public bodies in Wales exercising devolved functions.

However, Section 79 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 already imposes a duty on Welsh Ministers in relation to sustainable development. To avoid Welsh Ministers being subject to two separate duties, the Welsh Government wish to be able to amend Section 79. Currently, the Assembly does not have the legislative competence to do so. As a result, the UK Government have agreed to use the power under Section 109 of the Government of Wales Act that allows Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to amend Schedule 7 to that Act and thus confer the required competence upon the Assembly.

If passed, this order will enable the Assembly to amend Section 79 of GOWA, which in turn would allow the Welsh Ministers’ obligations to be aligned with the duties contained in the Bill. Section 79 was created in GOWA in 2006, when only executive competence existed in Welsh devolution. Following the referendum in Wales in 2011, the Assembly obtained full legislative competence for the subjects in Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act. This order therefore reflects the evolution of Welsh devolution since 2006. Section 109 requires the order to be approved not only by both Houses of Parliament but also by the National Assembly for Wales. The order was approved by the House of Commons on 15 December, and the debate in the Assembly is expected to take place on 20 January.

I believe that this order demonstrates the UK Government’s continued commitment to work constructively with the Welsh Government to achieve an effective devolution settlement for Wales. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this order is a sensible use of the power in Section 109 and that the practical result is something to be welcomed. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I rise to ask for clarification from the Minister. I do not think that many people would want to block the order, because it seems a patently sensible thing to do—but if the House did not pass this order, it would be a case of the unelected Peers blocking the wishes of both the elected House of Commons and the elected National Assembly for Wales. That strikes me as a rather unsatisfactory position to be in—albeit that the powers are being used in this instance with a recommendation and to move forward.

Secondly, the Minister said that the Assembly is “currently considering legislation”. I assume that those words were carefully used. Does that mean that the Assembly is currently considering legislation outside its powers? Are there issues that arise from that possibility? Is it outside its competence? If that is the case, are we asking for powers for retrospective action in order to put right something that has already been carried or debated, possibly outwith the Assembly’s powers? All these areas need clarification to avoid any instance arising, perhaps in circumstances more contentious than this. The objective of this order is probably acceptable to everyone, but one can imagine circumstances where that might not be the case and where there could be great difficulties.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I shall respond briefly to the salient points that have been made in this, our last debate. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred to the words of the Prime Minister. Perhaps I may point out to him the solid steps that have been taken since 19 September. The Cabinet Committee has been established under the chairmanship of William Hague. The Secretary of State is of course a member of that committee and, indeed, I attend as well when Wales is being discussed. I would also point to the establishment of cross-party discussions here in Westminster. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State will also be in discussions with the leaders of the Assembly groups. We have made the announcement which has been referred to on numerous occasions in our debates of the date of 1 March, St David’s Day, by when we expect to have resolved the issues to a sufficient extent to be able to produce a reserved powers framework for future legislation in respect of Wales. That will deal with the proposals for additional powers in Silk 2, in so far as there is cross-party agreement relating to the size of the Assembly. Silk 2 was accepted by the Deputy Prime Minister in his role of leader of his party. The long-standing devolution credentials of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, are well known and respected by this House. The recent Supreme Court judgment has made it imperative that the issue of the reserved powers model is dealt with.

[Lord Wigley]

The noble Baroness touched on Silk 2 and the fact that, in Wales, we had a remarkable cross-party agreement in the Silk commission to deliver it. A lot of parties compromised to reach that agreement. Can we be assured that there will not now be further compromise? The compromise has already taken place, the Government have a unanimous report and Wales expects it to be enacted.

[Baroness Randerson]

It does not, of course, lie in my hands whether there is compromise. It is an issue for the four parties within Wales. I strongly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, who has made clear that the devolution debate has changed. It has gathered force and moved on since Silk 2 was published. I join the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in being delighted at the end of the concept of WAG. I always regarded this as an unfortunate acronym of the Welsh Assembly Government. My noble friend Lord Thomas made the very important point that the Bill is just a step. I say to noble Lords who make me feel like a newcomer that I have only been campaigning for devolution in Wales since 1979.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

Yes, that is policy, announced by the Secretary of State for Wales.

[Lord Wigley]

And of course, every word uttered from the Dispatch Box is government policy, as well. What I am trying to reconcile from the Minister’s response are the comments that things are more or less right now and that there is a need to look at fair funding. There is something a little bit contradictory about that. They are not absolutely right now, or at least we do not know that they are. That is the argument in favour of having more investigation.

The Holtham methodology may or may not have been right, though it has generally been accepted that it was. That indicates there has been a closure of the gap, though there probably is still a gap, of maybe £200 million rather than £300 million to £400 million. We do not know. Taking the comments that the Minister made a moment ago in response to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, if there is a gap of £200 million which could be put right, it would bring us on to roughly what a needs-based formula would generate.

The assumption is that Holtham was looking for a communality of standards in public services in Wales, as might be expected in England. Whether it be £300 million or £400 million as it was, or £200 million as it is now, if that could happen with a one-off adjustment and by bringing in a floor and making sure that the changes—convergence or divergence—were on percentage rather than absolute terms, so that we are not missing out, we would at least have a system that would be sort of needs-based. It is not the radical needs-based formula that a lot of us are looking for, where you have determinants that generate entitlement to certain funding, but at least it would meet the Holtham assessment of the needs as he saw them at that point in time.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. The Government have been consistently clear that the decision on whether to trigger a referendum on the devolution of income tax is a matter for the Assembly and the Welsh Government. I say that in response to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. Clause 13 empowers the Assembly to trigger a referendum to ask the electorate in Wales whether they want some of their income tax to be devolved. The Government agree with the Silk commission that the 2011 referendum on full lawmaking powers for the Assembly provides the best model for conducting such a referendum. Clause 13 replicates for the most part Section 104 of the Government of Wales Act. The clause provides for the Welsh Government to move a resolution in the Assembly to trigger a referendum. If the Assembly passes the resolution by a two-thirds majority, the First Minister must ensure that notice of the resolution is given in writing to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State or the Lord President must lay a draft order before Parliament within 180 days. I refer the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Elis-Thomas, to Clause 13(3)(a) and (b) on page 18 of the Bill:

“the Secretary of State or the Lord President of the Council must lay a draft of a statutory instrument … the Secretary of State must give notice in writing to the First Minister of the refusal to lay a draft”.

The first thing I asked when I read the Bill was, “In what circumstances could the Secretary of State refuse?”. I was advised that the only sorts of grounds on which a Secretary of State could refuse would be where there was genuine doubt about the procedures of the Assembly that led to the two-thirds majority being obtained or whether it had been obtained.

[Lord Wigley]

Where in the Bill does it say that those are the only circumstances in which the Secretary of State can refuse to do so? Why must it take up to 180 days for such a decision to be taken?

[Baroness Randerson]

The Bill does not give those reasons. The legal advice I was given related to tried-and-tested constitutional principles. Dare I say it, the noble Lord is now asking for more to go into the Bill and in the previous debate he was asking for it to be reduced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

That is exactly the view of the Government. The Assembly, as I have just said, is in the driving seat in this process.

I resume my response to the initial speeches in this debate. I point out that by opposing the question that the clause should stand part of the Bill and through Amendments 41 to 45, 47 and 48, noble Lords are of course seeking to remove important parts of a tried-and-tested mechanism which was recommended by the Silk commission. Silk is the basis of consensus. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, referred to the importance of agreement, and so on, and the characterisation of consensus as something that the Assembly has sought on many occasions. Silk is the basis of the consensus behind the Bill. I ask noble Lords to recognise that we sometimes need a bit of choreography in order to maintain unity. That means that there has to be agreement to work in unison, although it may not always be exactly what we would prefer at any one time.

Amendments 41 to 45 would remove the need for Parliament to approve the draft order that sets out how a referendum is to be conducted, and the right of the Secretary of State to consult before such an order is laid. I repeat that all this is based on the experience of the 2011 referendum for lawmaking powers. It is the mechanism that has been agreed.

Through Amendments 47 and 48, noble Lords are seeking to provide a mechanism by which the Assembly could resolve to commence income tax provisions in this Bill without a referendum. I realise that there are those who do not believe that a referendum is necessary, but I recognise entirely the arguments put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, that the original referendum did not include a tax question. It is therefore important that people are engaged in this debate and given the opportunity to make their voice heard. It is a fundamental, far-reaching issue and therefore the people of Wales need to be consulted.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, was concerned that I had deliberately misunderstood her, which I find a distressing accusation. I invite the noble Baroness to reread what she said earlier in the debate; she might then understand why it is possible to have misunderstood her.

I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to withdraw the amendment, and not to oppose the question that Clause 13 stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am grateful to every noble Lord who has taken part in this debate and to the Minister for her response. There has been clarification on some points, such as the 180 days and so on, which is useful.

There is, however, a central point here: whether or not this House trusts the National Assembly for Wales, the elected parliament of Wales, to take decisions such as this. I have every faith in its Members that, if there is doubt as to whether they can carry the people of Wales with them in their decision within the Assembly, they know that they may need to revert to a referendum. Of course, they have as much intelligence to provide that as we do in this House.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Anderson, Lord Wigley and Lord Elis-Thomas, for tabling these amendments. I begin by discussing Amendment 7, which provides that the electoral provisions in the Bill should not be implemented until the Assembly has agreed them. Let us look at the electoral provisions in the Bill. The majority of the electoral proposals are widely supported within the Assembly. As I said earlier, the initial move to a five-year fixed term for the Assembly, set out in the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, came about as a result of a vote in the Assembly. In the Government’s subsequent consultation on a permanent move to five-year fixed terms, there was also unanimous support from the parties in the Assembly for such a move.

The consultation also showed widespread support in the Assembly for the move to ban MPs from also sitting as Assembly Members, although the Welsh Government did not believe that there was currently a need for legislation on this. The Government consulted on these changes. We listened to the views of those who responded and included these provisions in a draft Bill, which was subject to extensive scrutiny by the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee. Therefore, the Assembly has had the opportunity to express its views even though I freely accept that it falls short of the legal obligation that the noble Lords are seeking.

Amendments 8 and 10 would require the Secretary of State to publish draft orders within six months of the passing of the Bill, for the approval of both Houses of Parliament, to provide for the transfer of responsibility for elections to the National Assembly for Wales. It is worth noting that the Silk commission did not make recommendations in relation to Assembly elections in its part 2 report. I also note that wholesale transfer of responsibility for elections has not been devolved under any of the devolution settlements. Therefore, at this moment the Bill is probably not the appropriate vehicle for making such a transfer on a piecemeal basis for only one part of the UK, at a time when a wholesale look is being taken at the whole shape of devolution. If there were not work going on in the Cabinet committee at this time, it would be a more appealing argument. Having said that, I go back to the point I made right at the beginning of my responses: this is a response to the provisions of the Silk 1 report in large part and the Green Paper.

[Lord Wigley]

The noble Baroness refers to this being a piecemeal approach, which is apparently not appropriate. Would she therefore use the same principle that, when there are devolution proposals for Scotland, they would not be regarded as piecemeal but rolled out for Wales and Northern Ireland also?

[Baroness Randerson]

They are being looked at in the context of Wales and Northern Ireland, yes. Piecemeal means something different from having solutions that suit the individual countries. Piecemeal is when you pick one thing off at a time without looking at the situation in the round. There are some areas where I would fully agree that the situation is very different from one country to another, and it is appropriate that we respond in different ways. There are other things, such as the conduct of elections, where one needs to look in the round at all three countries and see whether one can have a comprehensive approach—the kind of comprehensive look that my noble friend Lord Thomas referred to earlier—to devolution.

The Bill provides for a referendum to be held on the devolution of a portion of income tax, among other things, and ensures that the decision of when and whether to hold this referendum is in the hands of the Assembly. It is important to point out that issues such as referendums obviously have an impact across the UK and need to be properly considered by not only the Assembly but Peers and MPs. In devolved areas there is already provision in Section 64 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 for Welsh Ministers to hold a poll in all or part of Wales to determine how any of their functions should be exercised.

I hope that the work of the Cabinet committee on devolution will result in a less piecemeal approach to devolution in the UK, and I point out to noble Lords that the Secretary of State is working across the parties in Wales to achieve consensus on a more robust settlement for Wales.

The amendments, if accepted, would represent a fundamental change to the devolution settlement in Wales. It is therefore important that they are considered in the context of party manifestos for the 2015 general election, and I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, many of us campaigned for a Parliament for Wales for many years and in that context, obviously, the ambitions for a legislative body that has full competence, including tax raising and tax varying, fits with the concept of a Parliament.

The one point that I would make—and undoubtedly the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has thought about it—is that the building in Cardiff is now known as a Senedd, which makes it even more complex, with the differential between the Senedd building and the Cynulliad Cenedlaethol or National Assembly that is within it. We are of course aware that in France the National Assembly is the primary body. Therefore, my feeling is that whereas I have total sympathy with what my noble friend is aiming at, perhaps this, like so many other issues, is one that in the first place the National Assembly itself and its Members should decide on.

Changes have been made, as has been referred to earlier today, with regard to moving from the First Secretary to the First Minister and from secretaries to Ministers; something that was picked up by custom and practice in the first place and then became accepted. I hope that if there is to be a move in this direction it is by the initiative of the Members of the National Assembly itself. What is most important—I am sure that the noble Lord would agree—is the powers and functions that that body has to serve the people of Wales.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, for his amendment, which seeks to change the name of the National Assembly for Wales to the Welsh Parliament. Clause 4 of the Bill does amend the statutory title of the Welsh Assembly Government to Welsh Government. Since law-making powers were devolved to the Assembly in 2011, the Government have almost universally been referred to simply as the Welsh Government. Our clause reflects that reality. The same is not the case for the National Assembly for Wales, which is still commonly known as the National Assembly, the Welsh Assembly or the Assembly.

My view is that, once the Assembly has the powers of a Parliament, it should be called one. At the moment that is not the case. It is, however, worth pointing out that there are several national legislatures called assemblies. There is the Assemblée Nationale in France, the Quebec Assembly and the South African Assembly. So there is a swap-over in the use of the words.

Honourable Members will be aware that the Silk commission recommended that if the Assembly wishes to change its name to the Welsh Parliament, this should be respected. The noble Lord’s amendment goes further than Silk by simply changing the name of the Assembly in primary legislation—crucially, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has said, without the Assembly itself what it feels about the issue. I think it is essential that such a change should not take place without consulting the Assembly. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

We have in the grouping of these amendments brought two different fields into play, and they need to be addressed separately to that extent. Of course matters related to the Home Office are already devolved to Scotland. We are very much aware of that, and that is one reason why matters such as policing, to which the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred a moment ago, have wide support across the party-political divide in Wales and should be devolved rapidly.

Even though I accept what the noble Baroness said with regard to bringing in changes mid-Assembly, that may be appropriate with regard to some of the background systems and the concept of reserved powers without changing any of the actual detail of the portfolios being devolved. But if we are talking about further devolved portfolios of the sort that will come into play in Silk 2, they most certainly need to be specified before the 2016 election so that the issues within those portfolios can be addressed by the parties putting forward the manifestos for that election. I understand what the noble Baroness is saying in regard to the theory, but in regard to the practice we need to have that further detail.

I return to Amendment 1. I reject the suggestion made by the noble Baroness that this has been poorly thought out. It has been drafted on very good advice.

[Baroness Randerson]

I—

[Lord Wigley]

I am sorry, but those were her words.

[Baroness Randerson]

I hope the noble Lord will accept that I was referring to Amendments 2A and 3.

[Lord Wigley]

I am very grateful that the noble Baroness is taking the opportunity to clarify that, because that will be helpful for Members in all parts of the House. It is quite clear that we have a cross-party consensus, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, mentioned a moment ago. It will be very helpful if we could have some indication between now and Report as to how exactly this is going to be taken forward.

Although there is a mention of “within six months” in the amendment as a period for bringing forward proposals on reserved powers, that does not mean that we need to take the whole six months. I believe that the process can be completed within four months, before Prorogation for a general election. It will be very useful if this has been clarified at that stage, even if some of the detailed legislation has to be taken forward thereafter.

I also reject the suggestion—it is always made at this stage of a Bill, as we are coming nearer Royal Assent—that if we send it back with changes to another place that will open a can of worms. I do not believe it will because I think the same cross-party consensus exists in another place as exists here. If there is that general agreement with regard to the reserved power model, let us just get on with it, not hold back.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord might reflect that while there might be consensus within Wales on this issue among political parties, there are a very large number of English MPs in the other place who will quite rightly want to discuss this in the context of their own situation. I fear that we could find the process very heavy going if we started to expand this Bill beyond its original intention.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, heaven help us if English MPs are going to start voting on matters of purely Welsh concern, but I take the point. I am sure the other point is understood across this Chamber as well.

The issue that I want to stress before withdrawing this amendment—obviously at this stage it is a probing amendment—is please, between now and Report, can we firm up the intentions in general with regard to reserved powers? I reserve the right to come back at Report if that is not done. I hope we can achieve that without that being necessary and that the consensus in this Chamber today will be carried through and can work for the benefit of Wales. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I am specifically making it clear that the Government do not have a position on the reserved powers model. As the Silk report recommended, this is something for manifesto positions from the different parties. However, my party is in favour of the reserved powers model. That does not make it a government position, and it certainly is not something that can be created now. However much one might wish to do so, we cannot write the kind of complex legislation needed for a reserved powers model of devolution for Wales. If we tried to do so at that speed, we would be in danger of ending up with second-rate legislation, which the people of Wales do not deserve.

I move on to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on corporation tax. I remind the House that the Silk commission said that if corporation tax were devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland it should also be devolved to Wales. There are no current plans to devolve to Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, the Bill contains the power to devolve further taxes to Wales by order. I would like noble Lords to note that. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, raised the same issue about the power to devolve further taxes. A good example would be the aggregates levy once the EU Commission has completed its investigations. That provision is in the Bill as it stands.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, and others, raised the issue of borrowing powers and why they are not higher. I should point out that there are two capital borrowing limits: the annual limit and the overall limit. The overall limit in Scotland is £2.2 billion, which is supported by around £5 billion of annual devolved tax revenue. Using the same ratio, the overall limit in Wales would have been only £100 million. I ask noble Lords to bear that in mind when they ask for Wales to be treated like Scotland. We accepted that £100 million was inadequate so we increased it to £500 million specifically to enable M4 improvements to be undertaken, although there are no restrictions in law on how that could be spent. Obviously this is a power in perpetuity which the Welsh Government could exert for other things.

[Lord Wigley]

I asked a specific question on that. If the cost of the M4 relief road around Newport is £930 million, or so, and the limit on the borrowing, prior to having a referendum that would enable more to be levered in, is £500 million, does the balance—the £438 million, or whatever the figure is—have to come out of the capital budget of the National Assembly, and does that mean that all the other projects that are being funded by that are lost?

[Baroness Randerson]

How the Welsh Government raise the additional money is, of course, entirely at their discretion. It could come directly from their capital budget or they could have a partnership with the private sector to ensure that additional funding is available for them.

Wales: Silk Report

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I start by joining the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and others, in the tributes to Lord Roberts of Conwy. I had known him over many years, and he provided me with an inspirational example in the way that he fulfilled his role in the Wales Office. In particular, his love of the Welsh language ensured that changes were made at the time that have strengthened the language and its position in society.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for securing the debate today on the very important opportunities for Wales presented by the recommendations made by the Silk commission in its Part 1 report. I also paid tribute to the hard work of the Silk commission that went into the report, and I note the important role that the noble Lord played in that process. I have listened carefully to noble Lords in the Chamber and I am pleased that the Government’s response to the Silk commission’s recommendations has been broadly welcomed by several noble Lords, as has the draft Wales Bill, which, we must remember, implements the vast majority of its key recommendations, and which is currently undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny in the other place.

The Government believe that the devolution of tax and borrowing powers should be used to help to generate jobs and growth in the Welsh economy; to give Wales a competitive edge; and to make Wales a more prosperous place. Our response to the Silk commission and the powers we will transfer to Cardiff Bay, take forward these principles. The Welsh economy has lagged behind other parts of the UK for far too long—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson—and we intend to give the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales the tools to change that.

Just as importantly, implementing the Silk commission’s recommendations will also make the devolved institutions in Wales more accountable to the people who elect them. We fully agree with the commission’s key recommendation: that the funding model of a block grant and some devolved taxes best meets sound principles for funding the Welsh Government, and that part of their budget should be funded from devolved taxation under their control. Since devolution, the Assembly and the Welsh Government have been accountable only for how they spend taxpayers’ money—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys. They will now become more accountable for how they raise it.

The Government demonstrated our commitment to these reforms by publishing the draft Wales Bill before the Christmas recess, only one month after we announced our response to the Silk 1 recommendations. We wanted pre-legislative scrutiny of this important legislation to take place in this Session of Parliament, and I am pleased to say that the Welsh Affairs Select Committee already has that scrutiny well under way. Subject to successful parliamentary passage of the legislation, I hope the new tax and borrowing powers to be devolved well before the next Assembly elections in May 2016.

I want an early referendum called as soon as possible after the legislation is passed, and I will be campaigning for a yes vote. I hope that the First Minister will be joining me.

In response to the points made about the ability to vary income tax in each band by the noble Lords, Lord Bourne and Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, among others, we believe that the so-called lock-step system of income tax devolution that we have set out in the draft Wales Bill is the right system for Wales. The system applies in Scotland and was agreed with the Scottish Government, with a single devolved rate for all bands. We believe that it would work equally well in Wales. It delivers on two key principles that underpin the Government’s approach to devolving income tax. It ensures that the UK maintains a progressive tax system. As the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said just now, it prevents a damaging race to the bottom on higher-rate taxes, one where the tax rate increases as the income of an individual increases.

The income tax structure is a key mechanism to redistribute wealth across the whole of the UK, which is why we believe it is properly set at a UK level. That point was made clearly and firmly by the Calman commission in respect of its recommendations on Scotland. That point transcends both Scotland and Wales and applies to both countries. The lock step ensures that the gap between income tax rate is consistent across the UK; that devolved government works comfortably within the parameters of the UK; and that fiscal devolution does not benefit one part of the UK at the expense of another. This could occur if the Welsh Government were to set substantially lower rates for higher and additional taxpayers without having to change the basic rate.

Devolving income tax would give the Welsh Government a crucial lever that they could use to reduce taxes across the board in Wales to put money back into the pockets of people in Wales who are working hard and deserve to hold on to more of the money that they have earned. It will create new incentives for growth and jobs and rekindle the spirit of entrepreneurialism. If the people of Wales decide in a referendum in favour of income tax devolution, the Welsh Government would become responsible for almost half of the income tax generated in Wales, making it more accountable while giving them flexibility over levels of tax and spending. An important issue is, crucially, that devolution of income tax would give the Welsh Government access to a significantly larger revenue stream to finance borrowing. So it is far from being a power that cannot be used.

Even if the Welsh Government decided not to vary income tax rates, it would still provide a base for borrowing as well as a base for accountability. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, pointed out, you have to win the referendum first. I am surprised that the noble Lord can envisage only a situation where the Welsh Government would wish to increase tax if income tax were to be devolved. Under the Government’s proposal it would be just as feasible for the Welsh Government to reduce rates of income tax—for example, by half a pence or one pence in the pound. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, both reflect the view, which is all too prevalent in the Labour Party, that taxes could only be altered by increasing them and not by decreasing them.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the Minister has mentioned three times now the wish, which she clearly reflects, to reduce income tax and reduce the revenue the Assembly would have. What services is she going to cut to facilitate that?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord does not take account of the well known economic mechanism that reduced taxes create more money in people’s pockets, which stimulates the economy, which in turn causes more taxation to be collected. That is a basic point of economics that the Government are pressing.

Much time has been devoted to income tax, but we should not forget stamp duty land tax, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, which will give us a chance to reshape the housing market in Wales in a way which is much more appropriate for Wales.

Further, we must not overlook business rates. The full devolution of business rates can be implemented almost immediately and without legislation, a crucial point which will enable the Welsh Government to get on with stimulating, for example, the establishment of new SMEs.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, asked about the future of the aggregates levy proposal. We have promised that we will review that once the situation in Europe is clear. On air passenger duty, we are not convinced that this will do any more than shift passengers from one airport to another. The situation in Northern Ireland is different: it is the only part of the UK that has a land border with another European country. That is the key difference.

Several noble Lords referred to Barnett reform, including the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan, Lord Bourne and Lord Thomas. The issue of fair funding is set out in the following way. The arrangements that we agreed with the Welsh Government, set out in our joint statement in October 2012, established a process to review the relative levels of funding for Wales and England in advance of each spending review. That process worked well at the spending review last year. It provides a firm basis for the devolution of income tax, should that be the outcome of the referendum. Convergence is not occurring at this moment; indeed, divergence is occurring, and funding levels are well within the parameters recommended as fair in the Holtham commission’s report, contrary to what the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said. If convergence is forecast to resume, we have committed to discuss it with the Welsh Government and to address it in a fair and affordable manner.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions. This Government have delivered for Wales on devolution and will go on doing so. Devolved Governments will be fairer and more accountable and will be able to create a stronger Welsh economy as a result of these proposals. It will be a giant step forward in the development of devolution. This Government are ambitious for Wales and are planning to give the Welsh Government the tools to do the job to stimulate the economy. It is up to the Welsh Government to use those tools effectively.

Wales: Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for his support on this issue and for underlining the importance of this Statement. I am proud of the record of the coalition Government: we have already, through our facilitating the referendum on increased full legislative powers for the Welsh Assembly, enabled one step forward on devolution to be taken. Today’s announcement heralds a second giant step forward for devolution. While expressing full confidence in the model of devolution throughout the United Kingdom, however, the Government have been concerned that we should not in any way undermine the union. It is important to bear that in mind.

My noble friend referred to the need to strengthen institutional arrangements. I cannot give him an estimate of the cost, because that strengthening is largely a matter for the Welsh Government. It is essential that they go ahead with this rapidly. I am aware that they are already in the process of strengthening their financial arrangements for establishing a Treasury function within the Welsh Government.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

The Minister understands that I support the thrust of the Silk report and the response of the Government, but can I press her on the way in which she is blindly following Scotland in insisting on the introduction of a lock-step rule whereby all three rates of income tax can only be varied in tandem, without the right to vary one rate independently of the other? In other words, if the Welsh Government wanted to bring down the top rate from 45 pence to 40 pence—an 11% reduction—there would have to be a 25% reduction in the standard rate of income tax, making such a choice totally impossible. Does she understand that the Holtham and Silk reports rejected such a lock-step approach? This not only denies the voters the choice of policy, but also flexibility to the Welsh Government and binds them into a straitjacket of relativities imposed on them by Westminster. Why do a Government who claim to support greater tax-varying flexibility in theory refuse to deliver it in practice?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am disappointed that the noble Lord, who has given a great deal of thought to this matter, has not been able to welcome the vast majority of the Government’s response. I take issue with the idea that we are blindly following Scotland. There is no blindness about this. The Treasury has made its decision on this, based on the evidence that it took in relation to the specific situation in Wales. I have already referred to the significance of the very porous border between England and Wales, and to the fact that so many people live close to and cross it on a daily basis. That was borne in mind by the commissioners at the Silk commission when they produced their report, and the Government have had to take that into account as well.

Wales: Financial Powers

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Monday 4th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to give additional financial powers to the National Assembly for Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, the Government announced on Friday that they will implement the key recommendations made by the Silk commission in its first report and will enable the Welsh Government to use their existing limited borrowing powers to improve the M4 motorway as soon as possible. I will issue a Written Statement on this to your Lordships’ House this afternoon.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I hope that this Question standing on the Order Paper helped to expedite the long-awaited response from the Prime Minister, which I welcome as far as it goes. Will the Minister confirm that she and the Government accept that the Silk report presented a balanced package, and that cherry picking that package would unravel it? Will she therefore state by when the other 20 or so recommendations that were not covered on Friday will be announced? Will they be in the Statement that she will make this afternoon? In particular, will she give an assurance that the legislation necessary to enact all the commitments that were made on Friday will be on the statute book before the next general election?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his Question. Undoubtedly the continued interest in this issue from all sides of the House and well beyond it will have had an influence on ensuring that we had a positive response to the Silk commission’s first report. The Silk commission made 33 recommendations but the announcement on Friday did not go into detail on many of those. A full response to the Silk report will be issued in the next couple of months so that we will be able to deal with this by the end of the year. The intention is that a draft Wales Bill will incorporate Silk recommendations that the Government have accepted, where legislation is necessary. The Government intend to pursue that, if possible, in the fourth Session of this Parliament.

Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, this order will allow local authorities in Wales to make arrangements for an external provider to undertake some of the new administrative functions created by the introduction of council tax reduction schemes from 1 April when council tax benefit is abolished. These changes are part of the Government’s wider policy of decentralisation.

I will provide a little more detail on the contracting out order. It will amend the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996. Currently under the 1996 order, local authorities in Wales can contract out functions connected with the administration and collection of council tax—for example, the calculation of an individual’s council tax liability or the serving of demand notices. Local authorities in Wales can also currently contract out the operation of the council tax benefit system under the Contracting Out (Functions of Local Authorities: Income-Related Benefits Order) 2002 if they choose to do so—arrangements that will cease once council tax benefit is abolished.

While some of the new administrative functions related to the introduction of council tax reduction schemes are already covered by the 1996 contracting out order, such as the processing of applications, some are not. To ensure that local authorities in Wales have the freedom to contract out all the new administrative functions, this order amends the 1996 contracting out order for Wales to add the following new administrative functions: first, the issuing of council tax reduction decision letters; secondly, the payment of a reduction amount under certain circumstances where the billing authority is of the opinion that it would be appropriate; thirdly, the serving of a penalty notice in connection with an offence committed with a reduction; and, fourthly, the repayment of amount paid in connection with a penalty under a local scheme—a penalty that has been subsequently quashed.

Because the abolition of council tax benefit also means that local authorities in Wales will no longer be able to rely on their current investigatory and enforcement powers for social security benefits, Welsh Ministers are making regulations to provide local authorities with replacement powers to tackle fraud in relation to council tax reduction schemes. These regulations will introduce new penalties, the collection of which has also been included as a function that could be contracted out under the 2013 order. Local authorities that choose to contract out functions will be expected to monitor the services delivered by their contractors. We expect the decisions taken by the contractor to be of the same standard as that of a local authority officer and subject to the same levels of confidentiality and data protection.

Local taxpayers’ rights will not be affected by this legislation. The same rights of appeal to the local authority and to the Valuation Tribunal for Wales will remain. While this order does not expand on the current provisions for the administration of council tax reduction schemes, it will carry out an essential function by enabling local authorities in Wales to choose how to deliver their local schemes, whether by using internal resources, external providers or a mixture of both. It is important that we provide local authorities with the tools they need to deliver a cost-effective council tax system. I commend this order to the Committee.

[Lord Wigley]

Perhaps I may ask for clarification on a couple of points by the noble Baroness. First, am I right in saying that the interpretation of this order is the provision of greater powers of privatisation for local authorities if they choose to use them? Is that the implication—services that would otherwise be in-house in local authorities can be undertaken by private companies on their behalf?

Secondly, I refer to Article 2 on,

“Amendment of the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax, Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996”.

In subsection (2), there is reference to,

“the Detection of Fraud Regulations”.

Are these regulations that have already been made? Are they made by the Assembly or here? Is there already a statutory instrument in effect on that, or are we awaiting something to be confirmed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions and remarks this afternoon. In principle this order does not change the way that councils deal with council tax. To deal with the first point of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it has always been possible for councils to contract out billing, collection and enforcement. Councils have been able to appoint an external provider to undertake some administrative functions. This order simply enables this to continue under the new arrangements from 1 April when council tax benefit will no longer exist.

As always I will try my best to answer the questions that noble Lords have asked. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether this would mean greater privatisation. This order does not extend the powers that the local authorities already have to contract out their administrative functions in relation to council tax. As I have said, it allows them to apply them to the new council tax reduction schemes that are no longer part of the social security benefit system.

[Lord Wigley]

The Explanatory Note says that the order provides additional functions by way of authorising contractors. In other words, it goes beyond what was there before. Otherwise, presumably, we would not need it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

I do not want to go on unduly about this but, as I understand it, the legislation that we are dealing with today, here, was not scrutinised in the Assembly because it did not fall within the Assembly’s powers. If I understand correctly what the noble Baroness is saying, part of it—the part dealing with the fraud—does fall within the Assembly’s powers. The only point that I would make is that this underlines the need to simplify all this; matters are either devolved or they are not. That would make life very much simpler for everybody.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an interesting point. It is something that we have come across on a fairly regular basis, that responsibilities are split in a way that is sometimes not obvious and sometimes surprising.

I move on now to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who asked if there is more contracting-out now. I simply point out that this has always happened—for example, currently only three of the 22 local authorities in Wales have in-house bailiffs. Contracting-out on billing and bailiff services is very common. But a great deal of work has been done by the Welsh Government and by individual local authorities to have codes of conduct and best practice examples to ensure that bailiff services are run by improving standards over the years. A great deal of progress has been made on those issues.

Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

Annual parking enforcement reports are already in existence on the enforcement activities of those authorities which have civil enforcement of parking. In future, these annual reports will include bus lane and moving traffic offences. Although the concern for statistics is entirely correct, and although I am saying to noble Lords that the current statistics are of limited use, in future the desire to get more statistics will be fully satisfied. There will be annual reports.

I will review what is available and consult the Welsh Government over this. If I believe that they can add anything useful to our discussion today, I will write to noble Lords. However, from what I know of the statistics that exist, they will be of little relevance when applied to the future.

On the Lord Chancellor’s powers, it was thought appropriate that provision about appeals, notification and adjudication should be made by the Lord Chancellor. This is not a devolved matter. The UK Government have worked closely with the Welsh Government to introduce the package together. The process of co-operation between the two Governments has worked well in this case. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked about the estimated cost passed to the local authorities. There is no estimate of the cost. The enforcement is not being entirely transferred to local authorities, because, as I have already said, the police will retain enforcement alongside local authorities. However, I emphasise that local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. It is expected that the schemes will be self-financing within a year.

[Lord Wigley]

If there is no estimate made of the cost, how on earth can they say they are self-financing?

[Baroness Randerson]

That is the basis on which the provisions, in terms of the parking regulations, have been applied. This is not an entirely new scheme, in that this approach applies already in London, so there is the example of London to be followed. But there is also the example of how the parking enforcement has worked, and that has been very successful. For example, in Cardiff it has been possible to apply that self-financing approach very effectively. In the event of there being a surplus generated by civil enforcement at the end of the year, it must by law be spent on transport purposes. Those purposes are listed within the regulations, so it is very tightly controlled.

Local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. They believe that it will lead to a more effective and efficient bus service and an easier traffic flow. It is not an approach that would immediately attract rural areas, perhaps; we are talking primarily about urban areas. I emphasise that local authorities are not obliged to take up these powers; they do so only if they wish. It is for them to determine the suitability of the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to the bodies which were sent the consultation documents. The Welsh Government’s consultation documents are published on their website and were issued to numerous organisations. If the noble Lord wishes I can ask Welsh Ministers for a copy of their consultation circulation list.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

I am sorry to delay the Committee, but I cannot allow this point to go by. Will the noble Baroness refer to page 21 of this document, where at the bottom of the Explanatory Note there is a reference to the Welsh Government’s website? Will she look at it and decide for herself whether “www.xxxxxxxx” is an appropriate address?

[Baroness Randerson]

I assure the noble Lord that I will deal with that as a matter of urgency after this debate finishes.

Welsh Government: Tax-varying Powers

Debate between Lord Wigley and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take steps to enable the Welsh Government to have greater tax-varying and borrowing powers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, the Government established the Silk commission to look at the case for devolving fiscal powers to Wales, and the commission reported its findings last Monday. The Government are very grateful for the expertise and rigour that the commission has brought to this important work. We will now carefully consider its recommendations and assess whether they are right for Wales and for the UK as a whole. The Government will respond to the report in due course.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to the Dispatch Box to answer questions in this way, not least because not so long ago she was asking exactly the same questions as I am asking today. Does she accept that the Welsh Government have no borrowing powers at present other than to cover temporary revenue shortfalls—a power that has never been used—or residual WDA powers, which are offset against the DEL budget and therefore provide no additional benefit? Now that the Silk report has come forward, as the noble Baroness mentioned, unanimously recommending that the Welsh Government should have new powers to borrow to fund capital investment over and above the DEL budget, as well as powers to issue bonds, can she give an undertaking that the Government will quickly move to provide these powers for the Welsh Government?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord will appreciate that, as the report was published only last week, it is very early to make decisions. I can make no firm comments about the outcome of the process that we are going through at the moment. However, on borrowing, it is important to recognise that in October a joint announcement by the Secretary of State at the Wales Office, the Welsh Government and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury acknowledged that in principle the Government agree to borrowing powers for the Welsh Assembly, and we anticipate the potential of the Welsh Assembly having the right to raise and levy taxes in order to offset those borrowing powers.