Care Bill [HL]

Lord Warner Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

As I said, the proposal in the Bill is a good scheme and I welcome it warmly. But if the Government steam ahead regardless with the 2015 date, it could turn into a botched scheme, leading to confusion rather than relief for thousands of older people. This is a case where the adage “more haste, less speed” undoubtedly applies. I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, one of these amendments has my name attached to it. I certainly fully support my noble friend’s other amendments and perhaps should have added my name to them. This is an important group of amendments in relation to the deferred payment arrangements, which are an equally important part of the architecture of the new scheme.

I agree very much with the purpose of my noble friend’s Amendment 92ZZX. When the Dilnot report proposed the idea of a deferred payment scheme, it was to be a national scheme that was totally consistent with the minimum national criteria threshold and portability. I have to say that we envisaged it coming into operation at the same time as the cap. The Government’s proposal of universal payment arrangements is certainly consistent with our approach but it leaves unanswered the question of whether you want to administer such a scheme through 152 local authorities.

One could make a case for a central scheme or latching the management of a such a scheme on to some existing agency. I think that the arguments are relatively evenly balanced. My noble friend has come up with one way of doing it, which is a model scheme that would be required to be adopted by most local authorities. The worst of all worlds would be not to take hold of this issue and leave it to a marketplace of 152 different bodies without much guidance or assistance with compatibility of IT and issues of that kind. We need to hear from the Government how they intend to ensure that this scheme is operated consistently by 152 local authorities. I personally do not have an axe to grind one way or another but I fear that if the Bill is left as it is, we may end up with a bit of a mess, with a wide range of diversity among the different local authorities.

I certainly see the sense of the first part of my noble friend’s Amendment 92ZZY. I shall be very interested to hear the Minister’s response. The second part raises a wider issue, which I still think we need to give more consideration to. There was considerable concern during the Dilnot inquiry about access to sound, independent financial advice, not just in relation to a deferred payment scheme but to some of the other financial products or major financial decisions on paying for care that people would be taking—often at a time of crisis in a family’s life. People would not necessarily be as clear-headed as they might otherwise be. There would be a lot of emotion, and it was important that people could feel confident about getting impartial advice. My sense is that as these major changes come closer, the financial services industry itself might well prefer some stronger statutory safeguards on accessing quality financial advice, if only to protect it from accusations that people had been misled.

I think that we need to come back to this issue. Can the Minister tell us more about discussions with the industry, and where the Government’s thinking is on a statutory requirement on accessing independent financial advice, not just in relation to deferred payments, but to a wider range of financial decision-making?

I added my name to my noble friend’s Amendment 92ZZZ because, like him, I have considerable doubts about whether by April 2015 we can get in place a well thought out and reliable universal deferred payments scheme in place, alongside all the other systems changes that have to be made. The new consultation document, at more than 100 pages, which came out last week on the new funding and payment arrangements demonstrates the complexity of what is involved. These changes will require a major public awareness and education campaign, as we discussed last week. By coincidence, last week I received a note, as other noble Lords may have done, from Saga. It suggests that there is still a mountain to climb in making the public aware of and well advised about these particular new arrangements.

As I have already mentioned, it is not at all clear to me whether we are talking about a nationally administered deferred payments scheme, or 152 separate schemes. That issue in itself will, I suggest, take some time to get sorted out. It is another powerful argument for not rushing our fences and trying to get this all in place by April 2015. We need some convincing chapter and verse from the Minister on readiness, because I, like my noble friend, cannot see how it is sensible to introduce a deferred payments scheme a year in advance of the new cap scheme, with all the interrelationships between these two schemes.

The good news is I perhaps slightly take issue with my noble friend, and give the Minister some comfort on Amendment 92ZZW. I am not sure about putting an interest rate into primary legislation. The ex-Minister in me would be saying, “I think we need a bit more flexibility than that”.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I shall give some support to the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. He has thought about this issue in greater detail than many, and that is very important. It is worth pointing out one thing which many people seem to have forgotten. We already operate deferred payments. We have done for a very long time; this is not new. My first question to the Minister is, what intelligence have the Government taken from the evidence which already exists about the operation of current deferred payment schemes—albeit not as part of the Dilnot scheme—in the assumptions they have made about how this legislation will be implemented?

Secondly, I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that the potential effects will vary according to demography. In certain boroughs, the overall balance of the population and its longevity will mean that this has a greater impact than elsewhere. For example, in Greater London, the impact will be completely different in the London Borough of Newham and the London Borough of Richmond. Have the differing effects in different geographical areas been modelled? What lessons have the Government taken from that modelling?

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is right. This scheme is a very important part of the overall architecture of Dilnot, and if it does not work, given the sensitivities which there are around property and so on, it could be extremely damaging. The noble Lord may be right that it should be deferred, perhaps as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, suggested, for a year. It may be better to do it at leisure and in more detail than to do it in haste and get it wrong.

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[Earl Howe]

I have received advice that, technically, that is not so, but I am more than happy to engage the noble Lord in discussion after this debate. It would largely depend on the availability of a deferred scheme, agreed to by a local authority. It would also largely depend on the quantum of the debt that was already in existence. Of course, setting aside this particular issue, there could be a property on which there was pre-existing debt of a considerable size. It would largely be for the local authority to judge in individual cases whether it was in a position to offer a deferred payment scheme, looking at the facts of the case. I do not think one can make generalised remarks about this. We think that technically it is possible for an equity release scheme to exist alongside a deferred payment loan. As I say, I am sure that the noble Lord, with his insight into the market, will be able to put us right if we have misread the situation.

[Lord Warner]

While we are on this topic, it seems to me that there is an issue for the Government to think about. What is the market rate for equity release, compared to the market rate for deferred payments? If you are not very careful, you could end up with a situation where one is incentivised over the other. I wonder what consideration the Government will give to that issue.

[Earl Howe]

We will, of course, give that consideration. I am just reflecting, in the light of the noble Lord’s comment, on whether deciding what arrangements suit the individual is a matter for the Government, or rather a matter of individual choice. If there were a difference in the interest rate, it would surely be up to the individual to decide whether they wished to avail of whatever facility was being offered to them. I do not see that it is necessary to go down the path that the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is suggesting, whereby a local authority should be the one and only provider of funding in that kind of situation, merely because the interest rate was perhaps more favourable than an insurance provider’s.

Deferred payments mean that people will not have to sell their home in their lifetime to pay for residential care; I do not think that any commercial product offers that. Equity release is not available to people currently in residential care. However, there is potential for equity release to help people with domiciliary care and other costs. We would welcome developments in that market but this is an evolving discussion with the industry.

In respect of Amendment 92ZZX, we will continue to work with the care sector to ensure that authorities are in the right position to offer deferred payments from April 2015. There will be a dedicated implementation effort led jointly by government and local authorities, learning from local areas with well established deferred payments schemes. This will help to achieve a consistent national approach that fits with existing local systems and structures. We have also announced £335 million of additional funding in 2015-16 to support local authorities to deliver funding reform, including the introduction of universal deferred payments.

Amendment 92ZZZ would delay implementation by one year, until 2016. Given the work already under way with the sector and the shared desire across both Houses to address the issue of care and support funding reform, it is surely only right that we implement this at a reasonable pace. My view—and I hope, on balance, that the Committee will agree—is that it would be unfair to persist with the current system for longer than is needed. The timetable we have set out has other advantages. The 2015 introduction means that deferred payments will be part of the new offer to self-funders coming into place that year, and the stronger engagement by authorities with self-funders will be excellent preparation for introducing the capped costs system in 2016.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, expressed the fear that we would have 152 deferred payment schemes around the country. As we have discussed, some authorities already have established deferred payments schemes. We think it makes perfect sense to build on the good work that exists. It will also ensure that deferred payments integrate with wider care services. The point here is that authorities will be following criteria set out in national regulations. There will be a consistent approach to who qualifies and what fees they can defer, and a consistent policy around interest and charges.

There is, of course, work to be done by local authorities, but I suggest that what we are tasking them to do is not exactly alien territory to them. We are confident that local authorities have the skills to offer deferred payments. The requirements primarily involve financially assessing people and keeping a record of fees that people have deferred and the interest owed, which is all consistent with activities that authorities undertake as part of providing means-tested care and support. Many authorities already operate deferred payments very effectively. We will work with the sector to identify good practice, as I have mentioned.

In answer to my noble friend Lady Barker, in local authorities with established schemes 20% to 30% of self-funding care home residents take out deferred payment. The level of uptake in 2015 may be similar or it may be somewhat higher. Again, it is incumbent on us—and we recognise this—to work with the sector to identify good practice that others can learn from.

[Earl Howe]

Yes, it is intended to be an average estimate across local authorities.

The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, was concerned that there might be an incentive to encourage people to go into care homes rather than receive care at home, which would be contrary to the direction of the policy. That is an understandable concern, but Clause 1 creates a new statutory principle that applies to all the functions under Part 1, including care and support and safeguarding and means that, whenever a local authority makes a decision about an adult, it must promote the adult’s well-being. That ensures that individual well-being is the driving force behind care and support so that local authorities focus on achieving the outcomes that matter to people.

Moreover, although local authorities will be able to charge interest they will not be able to make a profit on deferred payments, so there should not be perverse incentives. Even so, it is important that people who go into residential care should understand their financial options so they can decide what is best for them. Authorities will have a duty to establish and maintain a service to help people access independent financial advice. We are currently consulting on how this duty should operate in practice, including how it works for deferred payment.

The noble Lord raised an important point in relation to the details of the scheme. These are all things we want to look at as part of our consultation and in the work we are doing with the care sector on implementation of funding reform.

[Lord Warner]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but he skipped past the whole issue of 152 schemes rather rapidly in his answers and brushed aside most questions. Have the Government actually considered a national scheme, which was one of my questions? Does the Minister realise that only a small number of local authorities are actually running deferred payment schemes? It is a very small proportion of the total. The overwhelming majority of them have no experience whatever of running a deferred payment scheme; very few of them are used to valuing assets. These are all new complexities, but the Government are not going to be producing their draft regulations until 2014, by the Minister’s own admission. This is a recipe for a total shambles.

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[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I add my support to Amendment 92AA to which the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, spoke so powerfully a few minutes ago. I declare an interest—or, more accurately, a regret—in that I represented YL in the Appellate Committee of your Lordships’ House and failed to persuade a majority of that committee that those who operate care homes under a contract with a local authority are performing a public function for the purposes of the Human Rights Act and therefore are obliged to comply with human rights principles. The complexity of the legal issues was such that the much lamented Lord Bingham of Cornhill and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale of Richmond, both dissented from the views of the three judges in the majority.

As the noble Lord, Lord Low, has mentioned, Section 145 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 addressed the issue by bringing some care home providers directly within the scope of the Human Rights Act, providing direct legal protection for residents of such homes. However, important gaps in the law remain. Duties under the Human Rights Act are not owed by the person who provides residential care to persons who pay for it themselves—that is, when the local authority is not paying—and the provider of care services, when that provider is not a local authority, has no duties under the Human Rights Act when providing care in a person’s own home.

I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Low, that, in the light of the changes to be introduced by this Bill, it is important that the law should clearly address liability under the Human Rights Act. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Low, who made a very powerful case, that the vulnerability of the person receiving care, and the risk of abuse, mean that the law should now impose duties on the provider under the Human Rights Act in all these circumstances to encourage the maintenance of high standards and provide a direct remedy for the victim in appropriate cases. It is really no answer for the Government to say, as they have previously indicated, that it is undesirable in principle to specify the scope of the Human Rights Act in relation to public functions. The YL judgment already does that in a deeply unsatisfactory and narrow manner.

I accept, of course, that improved regulation and proper training will play an important part in protecting the interests of those receiving care. However, I ask the Minister to accept that the principles and the remedies under the Human Rights Act will add a significant and necessary further dimension to the obligations of those providing care and to the rights of those receiving it. I hope we will receive a positive response from the Minister this evening to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I follow the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, with some trepidation but I do so as a member of the Joint Select Committee that recommended a change to the Bill along the lines asked for so eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Low. I remind the Minister of an individual case which demonstrates the lacunae in the current legislation. It was the case of a lady over 90, who wholly self-funded in a private nursing home. This lady expressed her views—I suspect rather trenchantly—about assisted dying. She did not ask them to do anything about assisted dying but merely offered her views—though probably, as I say, quite trenchantly—but the home owner and members of staff took great exception to those views. She was pretty much immediately given four weeks’ notice to quit. We are talking about an elderly person who was very vulnerable. Her son took counsel’s opinion, which seemed to be remarkably similar to the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. We are faced with a situation where you can fall down on two grounds: on the grounds that you are in a privately provided home, and on the grounds that you are a self-funder. Whatever the arguments, and we have been over this ground several times in this House, the reality is that vague requirements on the CQC to observe the requirements of the Human Rights Act do not safeguard elderly people in the kind of case that I have posited.

We have to look at this again, which is why, when the Joint Committee looked at this issue, we took advice from our adviser, who is legally qualified. If I may remind the noble Lord, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, was a member of the committee, which went along with that recommendation. The Government have to move away from the rather brushing-off response that they gave to the Joint Committee’s recommendation and think again, particularly in light of the powerful case made by the noble Lord, Lord Low, and strongly supported by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak today. I support the amendment, but in a rather different context. I welcome the work that the Government have done on the safeguarding clauses. Those of us who work in this area find that extremely helpful. However, the tone of today’s discussion has been very negative about providers, so I am probably outside my comfort zone, even more than the noble Lord, as a provider. I declare my interest as the president of Livability; I chair both its providing committee and its safeguarding board.

Throughout the sector there are large numbers of organisations that run their own safeguarding boards within the organisation, where they review every single incident that occurs within it. Quite properly, they already refer to the local authority those cases where they think it should be informed, and indeed to the CQC. In the not-too-distant past I had conversations with the Charity Commission about its role in these areas as well as those of the providers and the regulators.

It would be a pity if we did not recognise the huge amount of work that was going on already on safeguarding, and that we can learn a great deal from it. I would be pleased to support the amendment that says the Secretary of State should collect any report, because we could then look at trends. There is not a single provider that would object to being controlled by the Human Rights Act; I think that we all see ourselves as already being controlled by that Act, because we work under contract to the local authorities and see that as a clear extension of it. If it were direct, we would not operate any differently from how we do already.

I apologise for taking the time of the Committee today because I have not intervened very often, but it needs to be on record that there are thousands of elderly people and disabled people being significantly cared for by very good providers in conjunction and partnership with their local authority.

One of the issues that I would really like to have supported is the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, saying that you have to change the culture. What will make the difference—this has made a difference in the organisation where I work, where we extended our services—is a culture of no blame. The sense that I have had here today is rather one of blame, but having no blame brings people forward and makes them report incidents that you can then look at. In my role, I am really concerned when no one comes forward and reports an incident.

I welcome what the Government are doing, but I hope that whatever else comes is not so draconian that it actually prevents people coming forward and making it clear that they want to report incidents in their organisation.

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The Government’s position has been that all providers—

[Lord Warner]

Perhaps I could suggest that the Minister should have another conversation with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. After the quotation to which she referred, the noble and learned Lord signed and agreed the Joint Committee’s report that made the recommendation. The Minister might like to have a discussion with him about whether he has changed his position.

[Baroness Northover]

That is a very interesting point. This is a very serious area. We want to make sure that the Human Rights Act applies in the way that we think it does, and in the way that the noble Lord’s Government brought in and thought that it did apply. I have a feeling that this is an issue that we will revisit. I remember the discussions last year on this between the noble Lord, Lord Low, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and others. I would not be at all surprised if there were further discussions.

The important point here is to protect people, to make sure that the law protects them and to do nothing that undermines the effect of the Human Rights Act in other areas. The Government’s position has been that all providers of publicly arranged health and social care services, including those in the private and voluntary sectors, should consider themselves to be bound by the duty imposed by Section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 not to act in a way that is incompatible with the convention rights. The CQC, as the regulator, is subject to the HRA, which may give rise to a positive obligation to ensure that individuals are protected from treatment that is contrary to their convention rights. As noble Lords will know, the Ministry of Justice is concerned that every time you add a provision, you may inadvertently have an effect on the umbrella application of the Act.

The noble Lord, Lord Low, asked about the repeal of the National Assistance Act. I assure the noble Lord that there will be a consequential amendment to Section 145 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 so that there will be no regression in human rights legislation. He will also be able to set in context that change, in the light of the discussions we had earlier.

I point out that there are strong regulatory powers to ensure that the Care Quality Commission can enforce regulatory requirements which are compatible with the provisions of the European convention. This applies to all providers of regulated care to people who use care and support services, whether publicly or privately funded.

As to Amendment 92ZFE, we agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, that people who perpetrate or allow abuse and neglect must face serious consequences, including prosecution where an offence has been committed. This should also be read in the light of the discussion on the Human Rights Act. The Bill does not seek to duplicate existing law. Civil law currently provides redress for cases of neglect, and criminal law prohibits assault, which would include much of what is sought in this amendment. We therefore believe that there are already adequate provisions in place to deal with such cases.

My noble friend Lady Barker spoke of the potential creation of a new offence of abuse and neglect of somebody who has capacity. There is legislation that protects those with capacity, and there are powers that local authorities and the police can use. These include the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, and the police also have wide powers to enter premises for specific purposes with or without a warrant. The inherent jurisdiction of the High Court ensures that there is no gap.

Where an adult lacks capacity, there is an existing offence of ill treatment or neglect by a person who has care of the adult or is authorised to act for the adult under the provisions of the Mental Capacity Act. In our view, this is a case where an offence is justified because of the evidence that such people are highly vulnerable to abuse, neglect and exploitation.

I turn to Amendment 92ZK, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. We all want local authorities to foster an open and honest culture in which employees feel able to express genuine concerns without fear of repercussions. However, we do not feel that this amendment is necessary. As I think we would all agree, the law on its own cannot change organisational culture. We need to work with and through local authorities to consider what barriers exist to the type of open and honest environment that we want to see. This is something that we have debated a great deal and there has been much emphasis on leadership. However, legislation can have an effective role in setting parameters and reinforcing expectations, which in turn impact on culture. In this regard, the Government have already confirmed their intention to introduce an explicit duty of candour on providers of health and care and support. This will be introduced as a CQC registration requirement and will mean that providers will have to ensure that staff and clinicians are open with patients and service users where there are failings in care.

I turn to the need to be able to gain access to a person suspected of experiencing abuse or neglect where that access is denied by a third party. The Government carried out a full consultation on a potential power of entry, very similar to the access order proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, in Amendment 92ZFC. We received no compelling evidence to warrant such a power and, indeed, there was and remains considerable opposition to it from members of the public and some third-sector organisations. We have heard some of the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and the contrary view expressed by my noble friend Lady Barker and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. We recognise that this is a sensitive and complex area of work, but we believe that understanding what positive work by skilled professionals can achieve and promoting that is a more desirable, effective and sustainable route to take. As with all the new duties and powers in the Bill, we will pay close attention to implementation and address any issues that arise.

Perhaps I may mention to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, that, although the consultation has ended, we have continued to get written correspondence from both members of the public and third-sector organisations petitioning the Government not to introduce a power of entry. They are particularly concerned that such a power would be used as a quick fix that would neither resolve the problem nor improve good professional practice where the intention is to try to build trusting relationships. From what noble Lords have said, it is very clear that trying to get the balance right and focusing on the protection of the individual can be very challenging in such circumstances.

We understand the concerns that lie behind Amendment 92ZF, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. It is of course imperative that anyone—but especially those in the NHS and local authorities—who suspects abuse or neglect knows what action to take. Organisations should make their procedures clear and boards should widely publicise information on this issue.

Amendments 92ZFF and 92ZJ, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, emphasise the need for the involvement of social work-qualified staff in boards and reviews. We understand what the noble Baroness is saying. In Schedule 2, we make it clear that both the chairs and members of boards must have,

“the required skills and experience”.

We will elaborate on that in guidance and ensure that the importance of social work is recognised and supported. Guidance will also cover the importance of ensuring appropriately qualified oversight of safeguarding adults reviews.

This has been a very important and wide-ranging group of amendments concerning a new step that we are taking to try to ensure that vulnerable adults are offered the best protection. We welcome noble Lords’ probing of the Government. We are all trying to secure the same outcome, and we need to be challenged on how best to achieve that. I hope that noble Lords will have taken on board our reasoning behind doing things as we are and that they will be reassured that we are indeed delivering through this Bill what they are seeking. I hope that they have been reassured that their concerns have been carefully considered and addressed and, on that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.