Wreck of HMS Victory 1744

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Thursday 29th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

I am grateful for the chance to respond to the debate called by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), whom I congratulate on securing it. He is a distinguished former Minister at the Ministry of Defence, and, as he said, he was responsible for beginning the consultation on the future of the wreck of HMS Victory.

I begin by making it clear that the MOD’s decision to allow the Maritime Heritage Foundation to recover at-risk surface artefacts from the wreck is currently subject to a judicial review action.

[Mr Jones]

We had a Defence Minister here earlier, but he has obviously left the Chamber—oh, he is now returning. Why is a Minister from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport replying to the debate, rather than an MOD Minister?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

As I think became partly clear in the hon. Gentleman’s speech, different Departments are involved in the wreck’s future. DCMS, being responsible for the Government’s relationship with the UNESCO convention and English Heritage and for the protection of marine archaeology, has an important role in ensuring that the wreck site is treated appropriately. However, I must put on the record my thanks to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), for being on the Bench with me this evening. He is here, also, to listen to the hon. Gentleman’s points, which, I might add, he put extremely forcefully.

As I said before the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, the decision to allow the Maritime Heritage Foundation to recover at-risk surface artefacts from the wreck of HMS Victory is subject to judicial review. With the greatest respect, therefore, it would be unwise for me to go into the subject, given that court action might be imminent.

I would like to put the debate into context. As the hon. Gentleman indicated, it is unusual to find the remains of a British first-rate warship from this period, and the wreck is not just the predecessor of the Royal Navy’s most famous ship, the HMS Victory we know so well as Nelson’s flagship; Balchen’s Victory has historic resonance of its own. In its day, it was the pinnacle of naval technology. For example, it was fitted with a complete arsenal of bronze cannon, which is extremely rare. The wreck is located in the English channel, but outside British territorial waters, meaning it is not subject to the Protection of Wrecks Act 1973. Normally, a wreck within our territorial waters would be designated under the Act and therefore protected.

Neither is the wreck like the Mary Rose. It is not a single large piece remaining to be excavated. Its remains are scattered over a wide area, which is an important point, because it means that the wreck is highly at risk from environmental factors—shifting sands and bottom currents—

[Mr Jones]

rose—

[Mr Vaizey]

I will lay out why I think it is at risk, and then the hon. Gentleman can tell me why it is not at risk.

First, there are the environmental factors; secondly, the wreck is at risk from trawler fishing—I gather there are scratches on some of the cannon and that some have been dragged up to 300 metres away from the wreck; and thirdly, of course, it is at risk from illegal salvage. Indeed, one cannon, I gather, was removed illegally from the site by a Dutch salvor, but recovered by MOD police.

[Mr Jones]

rose—

[Mr Vaizey]

I wait to be corrected by the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Jones]

The only independent report into the wreck, the Wessex report, found no evidence it would deteriorate. That was the excuse pushed forward by Lord Lingfield and Odyssey for why they had to start work on the wreck.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

As I said, as far as I am aware, there has been at least one illegal salvage from the wreck, and it is obviously in a busy part of the world. It is not in a remote location that requires an expensive operation to take artefacts from it. It is in the English channel and therefore potentially subject to illegal salvage by amateurs looking to make a quick buck. It is important, I think, to recognise that. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Wessex archaeology report. That shows that the Government have been very careful to commission reports and get advice on how the wreck should be treated. In our opinion, it is important to recover some of the artefacts to help our understanding of Britain’s great naval heritage before it is lost for ever.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the gifting of HMS Victory. It is true that a deed of gift was signed in January 2012, transferring to the Maritime Heritage Foundation the ownership of the wreck of HMS Victory and all associated with her in the vicinity of where she is lying, except for personal property not belonging to the Crown.

The Maritime Heritage Foundation is a registered charity, and its chairman is indeed Lord Lingfield—and the hon. Gentleman has expressed his opinions on him. MHF was established especially to recover, preserve and display in public museums artefacts from HMS Victory and to promote knowledge and understanding of our maritime heritage, particularly through educational projects. The nature of this work lends itself to being completed by a charity, as charities have access to funding streams that the Government do not, and it is Government policy to give voluntary bodies the chance to use their enthusiasm and expertise to deliver functions that hitherto have been the prerogative of the state.

All artefacts recovered will be declared to the receiver of wreck in accordance with existing legislation to determine ownership. As specified in the Victory project design’s key management principles, artefacts transferred under the deed of gift that are recovered and accessioned from the wreck and the associated archive, including site plans, drawings and photographs, will form the “Victory 1744 Collection”, which will be managed and curated in line with the Museums Association’s code of ethics for museums.

MHF and Her Majesty’s Government are committed to making the artefacts accessible to the public through a mixture of exhibitions and virtual tours. MHF will publish more information about this on the website, but discussions have taken place with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which already has two cannons from the ship. Since the beginning of last year much progress has been made. There have been constructive discussions between the Government, MHF and the advisory group, which were required for the project to move forward.

[Mr Jones]

Considering that the organisation has no expertise on its board and has no money, which is the more important thing, how is it going to achieve this? How does this square with information from the United States about Odyssey, saying that it will get its money back by selling artefacts from the ship?

[Mr Vaizey]

It is important that the hon. Gentleman has referred to the trustees of the charity, but the charity has been set up expressly to recover artefacts from HMS Victory. It is important to stress that we set up a management advisory group, which includes the National Museum of the Royal Navy, English Heritage, the receiver of wrecks, the Marine Management Organisation and officials from my Department and from the Ministry of Defence. I can tell the hon. Gentleman, who knows me well enough, that as the Minister with responsibility for this work, I have at no point allowed MHF to proceed with any actions when this advisory group said that it should not do so.

[Mr Jones]

I agree, and I commend the Minister for that. Let me ask him, then, to stop the consultants and advisers to MHF and the consultants who work for Odyssey from attending those meetings?

[Mr Vaizey]

Perhaps it reflects my style of ministerial management, but it is important to me that where my advisers and indeed external experts are raising concerns, those concerns should be heard at first hand by those who might ultimately be responsible for collecting and recovering artefacts from the site so that the concerns can be taken seriously and acted on.

The hon. Gentleman puts his points forcefully and he is going to take a number of actions. The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury will write to him to explain the role of the Ministry of Defence, and I certainly pledge now in the House that I will take the hon. Gentleman’s points very seriously indeed, go back and consult my officials and write to him subsequently.

Question put and agreed to.