Trade Bill

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, I will begin with three preliminary remarks. First, like others, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Meyer on her maiden speech. All of us bring the experience of our previous lives to our role in this House and her experience has been particularly unusual and hard. All of us will benefit from the insights she will bring to our debates.

Secondly, I support my noble friend Lord Risby in what he said about the Foreign Office. The corollary of leaving the European Union must certainly be to reverse the squeeze that has been so consistently put on the Foreign Office’s finances and manpower over the years. We will have a much greater need for embassies and for trade missions in the future as we will not be able to rely on the European Union’s support.

Thirdly, I congratulate the Minister on her introduction to this debate. Having listened to the very authoritative way in which she introduced the Bill, I think we can look forward to a much greater degree of engagement between the Front Bench and the House on this Bill than was the case on what was then the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. That is very important because the nature of some of the amendments that will no doubt be moved on this Bill is that they may appear technical and arcane but they have very far-reaching consequences. It requires the Minister to have a real command of the subject and an ability to think on her feet to be able to handle these in a constructive way, and to carry the House with her.

I have one further point to make about amendments. It would be wrong to refight the battles decided during the passage of the withdrawal Bill. I voted for most of the amendments carried against the will of the Government and I wish that the House of Commons had supported them. But it did not and, once we have asked the House of Commons to think a second time and it has, one has to accept the result, and it would be wrong to bring those issues back on this Bill.

As I listened to the Minister’s confident exposition and her expectation that the Government will have everything in place for continuation of the existing FTAs and EPAs for Brexit day, I could not help thinking of what her Secretary of State, Liam Fox, said in July 2017 about doing a deal with the EU. As many Members will remember, he said:

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do”,


with the EU,

“should be one of the easiest in human history”.

He then admitted that it might not be so easy in practice because politics gets in the way. He was right about the politics but, even so, he was devastatingly underestimating the problems of doing a deal with the EU.

While I certainly support the Government’s aim of seeking to achieve the greatest amount of certainty, continuity and stability in our trade and investment relationships for our businesses, citizens and trading partners, I cannot help feeling that it will be miraculous if, by the time we are due to leave the EU, all those matters have been wrapped up. It would be very surprising indeed if difficulties did not arise. Both the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, from the Labour Front Bench and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, put very relevant questions to the Minister on this matter. I hope that she will be able to deal satisfactorily with what they said.

Then there is the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, about what will happen if there is no deal. What will happen then? Is not the subject that we are talking about now, the FTAs and EPAs, yet another instance of where the country is unprepared for such an outcome? The result, if that does happen, will be considerable uncertainty for the businesses and citizens it is the Government’s objective to protect. In saying this I am not criticising the Government. I recognise that they are doing all they can to bring about a deal that will preserve jobs and employment. It is a very difficult task and I fully support the Prime Minister’s approach. But it is a criticism of those—largely, I am sorry to say, in my own party—who are putting up barriers to compromise and trying to thwart negotiations for ideological reasons in the belief that failure will promote their personal ambitions. This is a very real danger. I did not agree with my very good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, when he said that he did not think there would be a Brexit. Sadly, there most likely will be one, but it is important that the terms should be as good as we can get, and I fear that those who are trying to sabotage what the Prime Minister is doing are doing a great disservice to the country.

On the whole, those people, and indeed some others, say that we should not fear a no deal and a crash-out because we will be able to rely on WTO rules. I will put two points to the Minister on this subject. First, what assessment has the Department of Trade made of the effect of the United States’ unwillingness to make an appointment to the WTO disputes arbitration body? Am I not right in thinking that there is a considerable danger that by the end of this year that body will not be quorate? If we are relying on WTO rules, which some people seem to think is such a good idea, what is the Department of Trade’s assessment of the nature of the problems that will arise if the disputes arbitration body is unable to function?

Secondly, what assessment has the Minister’s department made of the suggestion recently put forward by President Trump that the United States might withdraw from the WTO? I know that President Trump makes many suggestions and does not fulfil all the things he says—but, none the less, if we are to put our trust in the WTO, it is slightly concerning that the President of the United States, the largest trading country in the world, is contemplating the possibility of withdrawing from that organisation. I wonder what discussions Her Majesty’s Government have had with the United States Government on this subject. I should be very grateful if my noble friend could tell us what has been happening on that front as well.

Trade Bill

Lord Tugendhat Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 6th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, my perspective is that of a former negotiator. I do not think that a serious parliamentary procedure of the kind set out in the amendment for the approval of a mandate and the approval of the outcome of a negotiation damages one’s negotiating stance or limits one’s flexibility. I do not believe that at all. Having negotiated against Americans, I know that it greatly strengthens their hand to be able to say, “Here is the proof that I cannot give you what you want, because Congress would turn it down”. At the end of the day, when Congress turns one down—and it does—that is a very serious and effective deterrent to those disagreeing with the Americans in a negotiation. Speaking against unilateral disarmament in 1957, Aneurin Bevan talked of the dangers of sending the Foreign Secretary naked into the conference room. If we do not accept the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, we will weaken the hand of British negotiators in the future.

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, I will intervene very briefly. The proposers of this amendment put forward their arguments so admirably that there is little more to say, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who compared the role envisaged for this Parliament with the roles of other parliaments. As we all know, one of the key arguments in the referendum campaign was about taking back control. Here is an absolute instance of where Parliament ought to take on greater powers if it is to take back control over an important area of British policy. The other thing is that a great deal has been made by the Government, the Secretary of State for International Trade and the Prime Minister about the centrality of being able to do trade deals. The argument is put forward that one of the great reasons for being outside the EU is that it gives us the ability to do trade deals. They are going to be a central part of government activity once we have left the European Union. For those two reasons, it seems to me that the Minister will have to put forward some very strong arguments indeed if she is to convince me and perhaps some others that it is right for the Government to ignore the principle inherent in this amendment.