Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Tope and Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord Tope (LD)
My Lords, we have been going for nearly two hours, so I will resist the temptation to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Porter—but it does take a bit of willpower to resist. Forty years as a London borough councillor does not obviously qualify me to speak in a debate that has been largely about rural housing, but I have added my name to Amendments 56A and 57C in the name of my noble friend Lady Bakewell about community land trusts. I did that because much of the debate has been about the role of CLTs in rural areas, but of course they are present in urban areas as well. Indeed, the London part on Sunday’s “Politics” show devoted considerable time to a community land trust in the East End of London which is doing a very good job of enabling people in the area to acquire properties that are genuinely affordable at the level of income they have. In London that is a rare achievement and certainly one that is worth taking note of. As CLTs burgeon at a rapid rate, let us hope they also burgeon in London and other urban areas. That is why I support the amendments.
I rise at what I hope is towards the end of the debate to remind the Minister of the point made by my noble friend some time ago about community land trusts. They have a discretion not to sell CLT homes, but having spoken at their conference a couple of weeks ago and in fact the day after it was announced in the other place, I know that they still feel rather vulnerable about something which is simply a voluntary agreement. They fear for their longer-term future as regards homes that have been provided on a long-term lease to a registered provider because their needs may change. I hope that the Minister can address this point and try to give some further reassurance to CLTs because I do not think we want to see them going down this road.
Finally, I will simply point out that Amendments 56A and 57C are two separate amendments rather than part of a whole. If the Minister can find the time, I hope that she will address them as separate points, although I do not envy her the task of replying to a debate that has now lasted almost two hours.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, perhaps I may add just marginally to the Minister’s burden in that regard. I want to pick up on some of the rationale that has been advanced for the voluntary deal, which does not seem to me to be fair. We are calling it a voluntary deal but of course it is underpinned by a mandatory portable discount—so how voluntary is that? For once in my life I must take exception to what the noble Lord, Lord Best, said. He pointed out that this is different from the 1980s because housing associations are getting paid the full value for the property, but in the next sentence he said that this has nothing to do with housing associations because they have not lobbied in any way for councils to pick up the tab.
I accept that there is no formal link, but when housing associations made their judgments, they must have known full well that the tab was going to be picked up by local authorities. It was already a manifesto commitment, and indeed the briefing note sent to us by the Minister stated that this measure—the high-value local authority housing provision—was announced as part of the Conservative Party manifesto where it stated that local authorities would be required to,
“manage their housing assets more efficiently, with the most expensive properties sold off and replaced as they fall vacant”,
in order to help fund the extension of right to buy to housing associations. It was clear that that was the intent and therefore, with respect, the housing associations must have known that the hit was going to fall on local authorities.
I accept that it was a difficult judgment and that they were between a rock and a hard place and trying to carve the best way through. But we ought to be straight on the rationale for this. The result of that voluntary association is that local authorities will have to sell off more high-value housing than they otherwise would, because that is how housing associations will be kept whole.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tope and Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Are we dealing with Amendment 79B and proposed new subsection (9)?
Lord Tope (LD)
Perhaps I can help and speed things up a bit. The subsection to which the noble Lord draws our attention refers as printed to the “City of London Councils”. The word “Councils” is obviously superfluous and a mistake. It might reveal where the drafting came from.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for some assistance on that. This was the drafting of London Councils, but I will make sure that it is corrected. I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing that to my attention.
Proposed new subsection (10) proposes that the board be given the general power of competence. That is in order to support the potential for future rounds of negotiation. Proposed new subsection (11) creates provision for the Secretary of State to dissolve the board only if the board’s constituent councils and the Mayor of London agree, although we recognise that the board might be dissolved through an Act of Parliament.
We are close to the end of this House’s consideration of the Bill. Nevertheless, we hope that the amendments will elicit a response today or at Third Reading that will enable progress to be made. If not, we hope that at least a fair wind will be given to the issue as the Bill heads for another place. I beg to move.
Lord Tope
My Lords, my name is also to the amendment, and I am very pleased to give my support in the terms described by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, to whom I am particularly grateful for introducing the amendment so clearly and fully. I join him in expressing our gratitude to the Minister for meeting us and London Councils so that we could explore our concern over the issue rather more fully—leading, I think, to a better understanding all round.
It has been my lot to speak only at the end of each stage of the Bill, having sat through all the other debate—which I have done with great interest and considerable patience. It has been clear from the start that the Bill as drafted, although it includes London, does not really relate to London government. Nor is there any intention to recreate in any way the structure of government that pertains in London. That is correct. London’s government structure is unique. On the whole, over the past 15 years, it has worked fairly well.
However, I have had the impression, in part from your Lordships’ debates, but also from debate outside the House and in other places, that there is a general feeling that because London has its Greater London Authority, its directly elected mayor and the London boroughs, devolution within London is largely finished, certainly in legislative terms—that we have done it and now it is time for the rest of the country to catch up. I entirely reject that view. London is by no means finished. Devolution is anyway an ongoing process that will develop and evolve, possibly for ever, in different ways. Certainly after 15 years, we are ready to see greater devolution of power—I stress that word—from central government to London government. By London government, I do not mean only the Mayor of London, I mean the London boroughs as well, and I mean jointly between the Mayor of London and the London boroughs.
In replying so far, at each stage of the Bill, the Minister has been fulsome in welcoming any proposals that may come from London to bring that about. We are concerned that there should also be the necessary enabling legislation in place to allow any proposals agreed between each borough, the mayor, the City of London and the Government to come into effect as quickly as possible. Concern has been expressed during debate among your Lordships that we should not delay implementation by holding referendums or in any other way. It would be absurd if we went through all the stages of getting 32 London boroughs, the City of London, the Mayor of London and the Government all to agree on what we wanted to do about further devolution in London only to find that there was not legislative provision to enable it to happen and that we had to wait for another legislative opportunity to bring that about. We all know that such legislative opportunities do not come along very often. This is the obvious place to make such provision and this is the right time to do so.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made clear that our amendments are not intended to be a detailed proposal for implementation now, but rather a fairly detailed indication of thinking within London. Not the amendment but the proposals reflect considerations that took place yesterday at the meeting of the congress of leaders of the London boroughs and the mayor. To that extent, it is a probing amendment rather than one that we seek to see in this exact form in the Bill.
We do this to try to give greater clarity to the direction in which London and London government are going in their thinking and determination to have much wider powers devolved to it from central government in the areas, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, of employment, skills, business support, crime and justice, health, and housing—in other words, on a much wider basis than is presently the case. The concern is that we can go only so far on co-operative arrangements and mutual agreement. We need reassurance that there is statutory provision to enable the bodies—particularly the joint committees when they are established—to operate effectively, be responsible and, when appropriate, be legal entities. So we are trying to find out the latest thinking of the Government in those areas. If it is the view that further legislative provision is necessary—I think now that it increasingly is—then this is the Bill in which to do it. We seek an undertaking from the Government that, by the time the Bill reaches Royal Assent, such provision will be included in it.