Local Government Finance Bill

Lord Tope Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Grand Committee

I am now an unabashed supporter of localism and at our last sitting my noble friend Lord Deben, if I may say so, made a tremendously powerful speech on that subject. He was a very much better Secretary of State for the Environment than I was and I listened to him with fascination. However, that is my view too and I utterly support it. It is quite inconsistent for the Government to be taking these centralised powers, over even such things as how the transitional arrangements are introduced. Is that necessary? Yes, this is a probing amendment but please could we have an answer? I think what we are all looking forward to is the answer to the fascinating proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Best, about the level of the single person benefit.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, my name is with that of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on the amendments to which he has spoken and I endorse all that he has said in speaking to them. I also endorse strongly what he said in relation to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Best, to which I am extremely sympathetic. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is right to say that the noble Lord, Lord Best, has made a powerful case. Perhaps I might also reflect on what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said in his conclusion. I certainly do not want to adjudge who might or might not have been the best Secretary of State for the Environment—I am not going into such dangerous territory—but he is absolutely right in his enthusiasm for localism. Localism means that you have to trust local authorities. Inevitably, some local authorities will sometimes take decisions with which many of us might disagree, but that is also what localism means.

We had what I thought was a very helpful letter this week from the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, which answered many of the points that were made in our session on 10 July. In the noble Earl’s letter of 16 July, he said that,

“the very point of localisation is that it is the council who has the greatest insight into council tax payers in its area, their ability to pay council tax and should take these decisions”.

Before that he said:

“Local authorities will be able to take their own decisions about the design of schemes”.

Elsewhere in the letter he says that local authorities,

“are best placed to take decisions about who should receive support”.

That really makes the case for our amendments and perhaps I should just sit down, saying that the Minister has made the point for us. That is at the heart of this argument. If we are to have localisation of council tax support—there are varying degrees of enthusiasm for that although I think we all accept that it is to happen—then that is what we should have. However, paragraph 2(8) of Schedule 4 gives the Secretary of State power to make regulations prescribing requirements for schemes. Paragraph 2(9) mentions all the things that those regulations may cover, including prescribing,

“classes of person which must or must not be included in a scheme”.

It has been made very clear that the Secretary of State intends to prescribe that people of pensionable age will be excluded from this. That may or may not be right, but to me that does not meet the test of localism set out very fully by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, in his letter. In no way does that leave local authorities best place to take decisions about who should receive support and in no way does it recognise that local authorities are in the best position to judge what is appropriate for the needs and circumstances of their area.

I do not think that we should be debating here whether pensioners or any other group of vulnerable people should, or should not, be protected if we believe that it is localism. That is a decision for local authorities that are best placed to judge the circumstances in their local area. If we mean localisation, I do not think that is a decision for Parliament or the Government. That is a consequence of localisation. If the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, were here now, she would probably be feeling a little agitated. We need to recognise that as a consequence and know where those decisions are to be taken.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, has raised the very important issue of the single person’s discount. I very much agree, not that Parliament or the Government should take that decision, but that the local authority should be given the flexibility to consider that in their armoury when dealing with this issue, just as they will have the very welcome flexibility with empty homes and second homes, the single person’s discount, part of which, of course, is recognising that council tax is not just a property tax but, in a small part, is a personal tax. That flexibility would be very important indeed. I hope that the Government will give very serious consideration to that during the coming month or two before Report stage.

When considering this sort of legislation, we always have to consider, not what the situation is now, but what it will be for the lifetime of the Bill that we will eventually enact. We will not have forever the present Secretary of State with his very well known commitment to localism and his benevolent approach to these matters. One day, there may be another Secretary of State—who knows, that day may not be so far off—who takes a less benevolent approach. It is to that future Secretary of State that we are giving pretty well unfettered powers to do whatever he or she may choose to do with this scheme, to impose it on local authorities, with no requirement even to consult. That, as my noble friend Lord Jenkin said, is the least modest requirement of Amendment 82A.

Amendments 88B and 88D, also in my name, as he rightly said, are probing amendments. I think he made the case on those very well indeed. As they are probing amendments, I look forward to hearing the results of our probe when the Minister replies. The key issue before us in this debate is what do we really mean by localisation and localism and do we really trust local authorities with the armoury of powers available to them to make those decisions without the benevolent eye of the Secretary of State telling them what they can and cannot do.