Terrorism: Contest Strategy

Lord Stunell Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I start by associating myself with the remarks of other speakers in this debate and my noble friend Lord Beith on the earlier Statement. Our thoughts are very much with those injured and affected by the appalling act of violence in Streatham yesterday. That is a concern shared right around the House today. It is a tragic and unwelcome backdrop to the debate of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and indeed to his Bill.

I live in Stockport, just nine miles from the Manchester Arena. On 22 May 2017, many young people from Stockport went to the Ariana Grande concert at the arena that ended in death and devastation. One of the 22 people killed was Martyn Hett, a larger-than-life character who lived in Stockport as well. His mother, Figen Murray, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has been tireless in pressing for the security at and surrounding major events and arenas to be improved. Like others who have spoken, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about the various slightly overlapping, and to some extent contradictory, comments from government Ministers over the past three or four months in response to that fairly simple and straightforward request.

The loss of Martyn’s life and the lives of the other 21 people killed in Manchester was a tragedy that has left families, friends and the local communities they come from grieving and devastated. However, we should not overlook in any way the trauma of the more than 100 people who were physically injured, and the many more who were traumatised by what they saw and experienced on that terrible night. As the subsequent inquiries have shown, the associated collapse of the Vodafone emergency phone system meant that, for the parents and relatives seeking news of people they knew to be present at the arena, the risk and fear were very deep indeed.

On the positive side, it led to a huge surge of public support and engagement by people young and old across Greater Manchester, pledging to back the city and defy the terrorists. That response has come from every community. I echo what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark said. Across ethnic and religious divides, people are determined not to be held to ransom by the terrorists.

I speak in this debate with some hesitation. All the other speakers have first-hand and direct experience of, and in some cases senior responsibility for, matters absolutely at the core of the debate. I am not in that category, but I will pick up some of the points made. I look forward to hearing whether the Minister will tell the noble Lord, Lord Harris, that he can withdraw his Bill, and to her explaining why perhaps he should not for the moment. I suspect that is where we will be at the end of this evening’s discussion.

The right reverend Prelate urged us not to lose sight of our values. That is a really important point and I will come back to it in my concluding remarks. We can indeed make everything safe and secure, but we lose our freedom and civil rights if we do so. How do we get that balance right? It is of interest, to me at least, that the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Carlile, who have experience of looking at this very much from the inside, made a point about the Government not being excessive or making things too onerous in their or the public’s response to these things, and for us to be proportionate and careful what we wish for. I was really impressed by the figure that there are 625,000 organisations and venues in this country. As someone with limited responsibility for at least one of those, I can just imagine the Pandora’s box that opens if we get the shape of future reaction to these incidents wrong.

I hope the Minister will respond in full to the points raised, if not now then later in writing. I will add three points to that list. The Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation submitted his report three months ago. It is important that we hear from the Minister that that report will be available to us to weigh up when we consider future terrorist legislation. If it is coming in the next 100 days—now, I think, the next 70 days—the sooner we get it the better. It would be a mistake to go back to the days of the Blair Government, when there was a Home Office security Bill every nine months. As I recall, whole chunks of one were often repealed by the next before they had even come into force. Surely we can aim to do better than that.

My second question concerns the independent review of Prevent, which this House prevailed on the Government to commission last year. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, had to say; it will be very interesting to consider the progress of that. There are six months left of the statutory period set for the publication of that review. I am not aware of a reviewer even having been appointed yet. I may be ill informed on that, but can the Minister advise us of progress and when we can expect to see the review?

My third question is not directly terror-related but concerns the Gold Command system, which comes into effect when major incidents occur. Consequent on the Manchester Arena event, the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, prepared a report for the Mayor of Greater Manchester. It made some significant criticisms of the Greater Manchester fire and rescue service. The House of Lords briefing said that this had now been tackled in a root-and-branch way. That is good, but phase 1 of the Grenfell inquiry made essentially the same points about London’s fire and rescue service. Again, fundamental reviews are being carried out. In these two major incidents, then, the two largest authorities and fire and rescue services in the country both had two significant failures. How satisfied are the Government that every part of the country has robust senior command processes in place that have been stress-tested and are properly staffed?

It is a fundamental task of the Government to keep their citizens safe and secure from violence. It is also a fundamental task of Governments in democratic states to preserve and uphold the rights and freedoms of all their citizens. In a democracy, freedom and security must go hand in hand. As the Government’s intentions become clearer, on this legislation and on other events, it will be on these Benches that we try to ensure that freedom and security go hand in hand.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who has spoken in this debate, and I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for securing it, coming as it does today, the most unfortunate of days, following the attack in Streatham. I am sure all our thoughts are with the victims who were injured. I join other noble Lords in thanking the police, who ran towards a man who they thought might be wearing a suicide vest. Our police are the bravest in the world.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I hope we can come out of this debate with a clear sense of purpose, and I will do my best to provide that clarity. I join the noble Lords, Lord Anderson, Lord Harris and Lord Kennedy, in praising the work of Figen Murray and her team. Her son Martyn Hett was one of the 22 people killed in the Manchester Arena attack in 2017. I was here when the Westminster attack happened and, like the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, I could not believe my bad luck when I was in Manchester when that happened.

To answer head-on the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, who wanted absolute clarity up-front in my speech, I shall quote the Security Minister on his support for Martyn’s law. He said:

“The Prime Minister, Home Secretary and I are all 100% behind Figen and are working to improve security measures at public venues and spaces. We are working quickly to come up with a solution that will honour Martyn’s memory and all of those affected by terrorism. I am pleased that last week Manchester City Council announced new licensing rules,”—


the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, referred to this—

“but we are committed to going further and making Martyn’s Law a reality for all public venues across the UK. I am committed to working with Figen and others to ensure that we are all safe at the public venues and spaces we enjoy.”

On that note, the first duty of the Government is to protect the public. Contest is the UK’s comprehensive counterterrorism strategy. It places importance on ensuring that the whole of government, police, local authorities, the private sector, communities and, indeed, individual citizens work in partnership, using all the tools we have available, to counter the threat from terrorism. I shall quote the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, here because he talked about proportion and balance. As he said, it is also important to protect our freedoms and that this is not all about terrorist attacks. We are talking about different types of threats, all of which affect people’s lives. To address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, different interventions will be required for different threats, places and buildings.

The attacks of 2017, the attack at Fishmongers’ Hall and the horrors at Streatham yesterday were an absolute tragedy. The Government have carefully considered where more can be done to ensure that we effectively engage with and provide advice to all responsible parties. Today, of course, that seems all the more pressing.

Since 2017, counterterrorism policing has developed a programme of sectoral and regional engagement days to provide the latest advice and guidance to those responsible for crowded places. It has developed new and revised training and awareness products for staff at crowded places and, in conjunction with the Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure—CPNI—it has produced a range of new advice and guidance, including an extranet accessible by trusted stakeholders. The Action Counters Terrorism awareness course is a recently developed e-learning awareness training programme freely available to all online, and I encourage noble Lords to try it.

Engagement with crowded places stakeholders is undertaken by counterterrorism security advisers—CTSAs—who provide advice, targeted awareness-raising sessions and training courses to site owners, operators and staff, and, as noble Lords have mentioned, local authorities. Further efforts made with public authorities include establishing regular engagement with local authority chief executives and others in key strategic positions to plan and prepare for threats at the local level and share best practice. The CPNI has developed the security considerations assessment, which supports businesses in reducing their vulnerability to attack. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, working with CTSAs and the CPNI, has updated and revised the National Planning Policy Framework and guidance to emphasise the role the planning system plays in ensuring that appropriate security measures are in place to help mitigate terrorist threats.

The Government have also been working closely with industry to develop new and innovative screening technologies for use in crowded places, and we are working with Pool Reinsurance to develop a new information-sharing platform. The £9.6 million project is being funded by Pool Reinsurance and is a ground-breaking collaboration between business, industry and the public sector that will make the country safer by providing secure expert advice and training to businesses and public sector organisations to help them develop their counterterrorism approaches.

Some specific points were made about different aspects of this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, talked about LFR—live facial recognition—being a possible tool in our armoury. Of course, as he said, it is not a panacea, but for specific threats on specific occasions, it might be an additional tool. He and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked about how you now naturally expect a bag search when you go to the theatre, as I experienced last week.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, asked when the report of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation will be published. The answer is that it will be published in due course. The Government will carefully consider the recommendations and we will update the House. However, that does not answer the noble Lord’s question about whether we will be able to see the report.

[Lord Stunell]

I think that the point is that, if it contains relevant information, we should have it in preparation for the legislation that is due to be brought forward in 70 days.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich]

If I have remembered the legislation correctly, it requires the report to be published on receipt. If it was received in October, why has it still not been published?