Housing and Planning Bill

Lord Stunell Excerpts

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I shall contribute briefly to this short debate. I spoke in Committee to support the Government’s Clause 115, and I shall not repeat all of that, but it remains true—I am convinced of this by reference to local circumstances that I know well—that local authorities will continue to undertake an objective assessment of need for their Gypsy and Traveller communities and do so on the basis of that need and provision for that need and a five-year supply in a way that will genuinely respond to that need while giving greater reassurance to all the community that all their housing needs will be assessed on a similar objective basis. However, what we are looking at now is an amendment to require local authorities to look at very specific characteristics of sites that have to be accommodated. Obviously, that relates to caravans and houseboats, but it seems to me that there is an issue relating particularly to travelling show people, whom I know well and whom we accommodated close to where I live, in one of their more important sites. It is a difficulty with finding sites that can accommodate a community of people who have to have both residential accommodation and the capacity to store substantial equipment. That is particularly important for travelling show people.

Could my noble friend Lord Younger, in responding to the debate, say between now and Third Reading, if he cannot accept this amendment—and I can see why he might not—whether he will at least think about whether there is are specific characteristics that could be specified in the same way in the legislation, as they are for any member of the community who requires a site for caravans or houseboats on inland waterways?

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendment and support the words of my noble friend Lady Bakewell and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. For two years, I was a Minister in the department with the responsibility for Gypsy policy. At that time, I paid a visit to South Somerset to look at some of the provision there, and I very much endorse what my noble friend Lady Bakewell said about how that council has addressed the issue. It is worth recalling, as I said in Committee, that a large majority of Gypsy and Traveller families are given—or have got, since given is perhaps not the right word—suitable accommodation on sites and in locations acceptable to communities. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, in many cases local authorities around the country have accepted the need to do that and have done it willingly and effectively. But we also heard evidence in Committee—and I certainly saw evidence as a Minister—that many local communities and some local councils will do whatever they need to do to avoid facing up to their responsibilities in this respect. As a recent incident on the rugby field has shown, there is still natural, casual racism in speaking about and to Gypsies and Travellers. That certainly has an impact at the community level on the way in which policy is applied.

It is a serious backward step to have this clause in the Bill at all, but I hope that the Government can support these amendments or something of a like nature. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, described the clause as a sop to those who might wish to have discriminatory policy for the public provision of housing sites. I think that it is worse than a sop—I think that it is a gift to those who want to pursue a discriminatory housing policy. It was a very powerful lever that the national policy framework required Gypsy and Traveller provision to be part of the five-year strategic housing plan that local authorities bring forward. Gently to correct my noble friend Lady Bakewell, the Welsh Assembly has indeed got hold of this issue and insisted on a five-year supply being built in, but it is already the law in England that housing authorities should do that, and Clause 115 actually takes that provision out. So I would very much like your Lordships to give consent to anything that we can do to rescue that, and I very much hope that the Government respond.

I finish by saying that there is trouble with Gypsies; it is overwhelmingly caused, when it arises, by Gypsies who have inadequate housing and cannot find a place to stay. Therefore, they do what they can informally, often in a very disruptive way for local communities. The solution is not to chase them around the country but to provide them with the sites that they need in places that are appropriate so that they can live in harmony with the fixed or settled community, so we can have what we all want—a harmonious relationship between all the groups in England.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I very much take on board the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about showmen and the storage of their equipment—and we heard that from the other side of the House, too. I would like to elaborate on one very important point. I am sure that the Government wish to diminish prejudice and friction between communities, Travellers and show people. Where there are no sites provided—and I have had some experience of that in mid-Wales—the community will tend to feel forced to go on to inappropriate bits of public land, and on to private land. It is very much more difficult for individuals and private landlords to enforce the law and control what happens. It is easier for a public authority to do so. For that reason, they must not usurp their responsibilities but must actually answer them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stunell]

I thank the Minister for that response, but will he take it a little further? The ease with which it is possible to avoid provision for Gypsies and Travellers in an area is greater than for the fixed community simply because their existence is denied. A travelling community which happens to be somewhere else at the time never has provision made, and Gypsies never quite seem to be where the surveyors are doing their work. Will the Minister answer that question?

[Lord Porter of Spalding]

Surely the noble Lord knows that that is not the case. He used to be in the department where surveys of the needs of Gypsies and Travellers are done. Surely the settled community is the one that will have less provision. We have just heard that there are 1.25 million people on the registered social housing waiting list. There will not be that many Gypsies and Travellers waiting for a pitch.