Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Berridge
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, the two amendments in this group are in the same vein as the one we have just discussed; they seek clarity, consistency and accuracy. The Bill is very specific in many areas to do with how the law is to be adapted to accommodate the convention, but curiously allows for a variation in Scotland and Northern Ireland in the criminal liabilities that occur. We have no reason to suppose that these are in any sense defective, but the Bill should be the best possible and as clear and consistent as possible, so might this be an opportunity for the Minister to respond, explaining why there is a difference or, if there is an unintended difference, how that could be remedied? I beg to move.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I raised this matter at Second Reading. The issue of inchoate offences is very important, particularly in this context. It sends the criminal law much further down, into preparatory acts. In these situations you often have a group of people acting—passing on information to buyers, et cetera. You often need to scoop quite a large number of people, so I would be grateful for confirmation from the Minister, because the inchoate offences in this context are an incredibly important part of stamping down all activity in relation to this illegal trade.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, in addressing these two amendments I hope to satisfy noble Lords, but if I do not we should speak between now and Report. I appreciate that the aim of the amendments is to ensure that the Bill allows the UK to meet all our obligations under the convention and its two protocols. Clause 4, as currently drafted, already allows the UK to meet its obligations under Article 15(2) of the Second Protocol and the legislation will comply with,
“general principles of law and international law”.
I will outline my main points now, although, given that this is a technical and complicated issue to explain briefly, I will reflect on what has been asked and send noble Lords a note setting out the Government’s position on this amendment.
The purpose and effect of Clause 4 are to ensure that the UK has extraterritorial jurisdiction to try all ancillary offences in the same circumstances in which Clause 3 establishes such jurisdiction to try the substantive offences. It does not establish the ancillary offences, which already exist under at least five different and relevant pieces of legislation. The good news is that these apply automatically to offences under Clause 3. In respect of England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the definitions of,
“An offence ancillary to an offence under section 3”,
are limited to the offences of attempting, conspiring, assisting and concealing, because it is only in relation to these offences that there might be doubt as to their extraterritorial application.
Where the existing law is clear as to extraterritorial application—which it is in relation to aiding and abetting and the offences under the Serious Crime Act 2007, which replaced the previous offence of incitement—no provision is made. However, as noble Lords will appreciate, to make such provision unnecessarily would be bad drafting practice and could create doubt as to the other situations where no such express provision is made.
The position in relation to Scottish criminal law is different and this is taken into account in the drafting of Clause 4(6). I assure noble Lords that the Scottish Government have, of course, been consulted on this provision.
I hope that brief explanation, together with the note that I am planning to send to noble Lords, will provide sufficient explanation and reassurance that we have taken the correct approach on ancillary offences, and that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, we now move away from emblematic conventions to the realpolitik of this, which is dealing with artefacts that are seized and the criminal practices that might follow. There is also the question of what happens to the artefacts themselves. Clause 14 specifies what happens if a person is convicted of an offence under Clause 9 by using a design on an article which was not authorised and was not appropriate. It moves on quickly to forfeiture, but one step away from that is the disposal or destruction of the artefact. Disposal one can probably understand, but destruction is always a slight worry. When going through the Bill we considered that we ought to raise this as an issue and ask the Minister to explain the circumstances in which she envisaged that Clause 14(3) might arise. Our suggestion is that a rider could be added that expert advice should be sought, or provision for that made in the Bill, so that full consideration of the ramifications of destruction are taken into account. We have heard already from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, of worries and concerns about the destruction of valuable material and we do not want to encourage that as the process which is followed. I beg to move.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, this also brings into view an issue raised at Second Reading. Many of these articles, when they are the subject of legal proceedings or they are seized by the police prior to forfeiture, are then stored for months if not years. It is not at all clear that the Metropolitan Police has the necessary funding or facilities barring an evidence room in which to store what obviously can be items of cultural heritage. It is important that my noble friend the Minister should outline whether under cultural protection funds an agreement will be made with the British Museum that certain of these artefacts need to be stored very carefully. This is not like storing the evidence from crime scenes and we need to be assured on this point.
We may end up in situations where, at the end of lengthy court proceedings, we discover that the cultural artefacts have been stored in conditions that have caused them to deteriorate during the course of those proceedings. There seems to be ample funding in place, so perhaps the Minister could write to the British Museum to see how it could help the Metropolitan Police to ensure that items which are not forfeited or destroyed are not left in a condition that causes them to deteriorate. Funding and a simple arrangement could be made to preserve items during court proceedings, a point which as I say was raised at Second Reading.