Digital Economy Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for a very well-read response to the questions we all had about these technical amendments, although some of them were not quite technical of course. In terms of the four categories, I listened to three very carefully, and I will read what she said in Hansard, but we have no further comments to make on them at this stage.

She touched on the issue in relation to which we have two amendments down. I am grateful to the Government for responding so quickly to the discussion in another place on this issue, because as originally drafted, the Bill would have criminalised disclosures by whistleblowers and investigative journalists revealing matters of legitimate public interest. The point was picked up and discussed at some length, and had attracted interest from a wide range of people such as Sir Peter Bottomley and Helen Goodman, who raised it. The Minister in another place undertook to take it back, and we have now had the amendments put forward.

Those of your Lordships who have bothered to read the amendments in Clauses 50 and 51 will recognise that the wording is very similar in both cases. The difference, narrowly put, is that the amendment that we were advised would take the trick in this area included not just print journalism but also broadcast journalism. I am not certain whether that is necessary or not, but the Government have come forward with a slightly narrower point of view. I think we agree the aim, and it may just be a question of the correct wording, so unless there is any particular issue, we can do this either by correspondence or perhaps in a quick meeting, and I do not think there is anything on this point that need detain the Committee further. We are agreed and are delighted that the Government are making the move. It is just a question of trying to use what time we have to make sure that we have absolutely nailed it down completely.

Having said that, what has proved difficult in other pieces of legislation is how one defines whistleblowers. There is no attempt to do that here; the test is simply whether or not what has been disclosed was in the public interest. Again, there might just be something around that where we might look at other discussions and come back on it. But for the moment, I will leave it.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the noble Lord for that. The opposition amendment makes specific reference to broadcast transmission when the government amendment on this topic does not. However, the word “publication” in our view can be construed sufficiently broadly to cover broadcast media. Section 32(6) of the Data Protection Act 1998 provides that:

“For the purposes of this Act ‘publish’, in relation to journalistic … material, means make available to the public or any section of the public”.


The ICO guidance on this indicates that publication for these purposes would therefore cover broadcast. As a result these additional changes are not necessary.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

It is quite an interesting point. The world has moved on since those original drafts, and we have to think a bit more carefully about what happens on YouTube and whether disclosure on social media will be covered by this. I do not dissent from what is being said but would just like to be certain that we have used this opportunity, which may not come again, to make sure we have this nailed.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I thank the noble Lord for what he has said and absolutely understand where he is coming from.

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Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

117A: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause—
“Data sharing for the purpose of supporting better debt management
In addition to the purposes set out in section 41(3), information about debt may be shared by specified persons under this Chapter for the purpose of helping individuals to manage their debts, including by provision of a breathing space.”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, in an idle moment, a moment of complete frivolity, I looked up GOV.UK to check facts—I thought that would be a useful contribution to the debate. The date we have all been searching for is 1837: the General Register Office is part of Her Majesty’s Passport Office and contains records dating back to 1837. I thought that would be useful.

I beg to move Amendment 117A in my name. This stems from my period of service as chairman of a wonderful charity called StepChange, which deals with individual debt owed by ordinary people. In the time I was there—I resigned about two years ago—we had about 600,000 people a year contacting the telephone helpline or going online to try to seek solutions to their debt problems, so it is a very significant problem in British society and something we must take a great deal of care about. Most people who came to us were struggling with multiple debts; in other words, they owed money to a variety of different sources, ranging from local authorities, mobile phone companies, debt collection agencies, Revenue & Customs, payday lenders, utility companies and catalogue lenders—there is a very large number of them.

A median client would be aged about 45, female and owing about £20,000 to eight different creditors, so it is a significant problem that people get into. Within that, with a tremendous requirement now for debt advice, with lots of people struggling with debt, one worrying trend has been how bad central and local government have been in dealing with people, particularly those with multiple debts. A recent survey of about 1,000 StepChange clients found widespread aggressive enforcement from local authorities even when people were asking their authority for help. Clients were more than twice as likely to be threatened with court action or bailiffs than to be offered an affordable payment option. This is despite guidance being issued by central government about how debts should be treated.

Of course, what happens when people face strong demands, very often from central or local government, is that they tend to go to people who can lend them money quickly, probably from an existing credit line, almost certainly, until recently—but even today it is still happening—taking out a payday loan. They try to borrow more to try to pay back original debts and get themselves into a worse situation than they were before. The same survey asked clients to rate what their creditors had done to them and whether they treated them fairly or unfairly. I am afraid to say that public sector creditors came out very badly, occupying three of the top six places in the unfair treatment table. It is interesting to note that HMRC, for instance, scored no better than payday lenders, which the Government, through the FCA, have spent a lot of time trying to sort out over recent years.

That is the background of our concern. We welcome the provisions in the Bill to think again about how debts owed to the public sector are collected. In that light, these amendments are put forward for suggestion, they are probing amendments at this stage, and I hope that they will elicit a response, because it is not just StepChange, the debt charity, that has been concerned about this. Citizens Advice has also raised concern about public sector debt collection practices, finding that public sector creditors are,

“mostly out of step with financial services and utilities companies when it comes to setting affordable repayment rates, and that our clients can suffer detriment when public bodies have uncoordinated and inconsistent approaches to debt collections ... central government debt collection lags behind the higher standards expected of other creditors”.

This is focused on individuals who have problems with their debts, but of course there is a wider cost to society as a whole which, through relationship breakdown, homelessness and difficulties with maintaining concentration at work, et cetera, has been estimated at about £8 billion a year. The Bill contains clauses that relate to this and they seem to suggest that central government as a whole—but in this case HMRC—are thinking about how the data-sharing powers that are coming should be used to allow them to collect several debts at once, but also to do it in a slightly different way. I hope that is the case. We are back with our old friend, the code of practice, because what is said in the code of practice will determine whether this will work.

I have, then, four things I invite Ministers to respond to. First, Clause 45 is limited to departments that seek data-sharing powers and says only that they should “have regard to” the code of practice. This has, I think, been picked up in other amendments that we have considered today. It would be good if the code of practice were also embedded in a much stronger statutory provision, to give it real bite. We have seen examples of guidance—I mentioned one involving central government issuing guidance on council tax collection methods—but such guidance does not work, because it is non-binding and only advisory. If there is a code, it should be embedded in the statute and people affected by it should be able to refer back to it to make sure that it works properly.

Secondly, the public body itself must believe that this is the way in which it needs to operate. Within the amendments are a range of issues that central government bodies might pick up that would match the best practice in utilities, banks, credit cards and store cards—all of which have been through the cycle of trying to get money out of individuals who owe them and other people money, and have recognised that you have to deal with people with multiple debts in a completely different way from those who just owe money directly. That is gradually changing the way people operate. There is further to go, but it is a lesson that should be learned. I hope that the codes can be adapted to reflect that.

Thirdly—this may be too much of an ask, but it should be recognised—this Bill applies only to public bodies, and their creditors, when they are seeking to use the data-sharing powers. The problem is, of course, wider than the data-sharing powers. Problems with central and local government debt collections are widespread: practices need to be reformed and this is not likely to relate only to places where data sharing is used. The Government should think ahead about this and try to set out an understanding for all their agencies that poor debt-collection practices can harm the rate at which they get their money back and the time it takes, and it will also harm the financially vulnerable people. Taking account of that across all their practices would be a very good thing.

These amendments, therefore, try to raise those points, but there is one other thing that the Government should try to do, which is in the first amendment. It is to take a lesson from Scotland—I am sure that the noble and learned Lord from Scotland will wish to pick this up and think harder about it—where, when you have a private or a public debt and seek guidance from the state agency that operates that scheme, you are given statutory protection from excess charges and your interest rates are frozen, providing you stick to your debt repayment plan. That means that people get a breathing space, time to organise their finances, think about their budgets and work out what they are going to do, without the terrible pressure from those who are owed money to start repaying it. It is only when all those issues have been brought together, and an agreement reached between the creditors and the agency, that repayment begins. That has a very much higher rate of success than any other scheme. England lags way behind on this, and it would be no skin off the Treasury’s nose if it took a leaf out of the Scottish Government’s book and brought in their procedures—with a statutory breathing space that gave some hope to people who want to repay their debts but cannot do so because the practices are not as good.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I acknowledge the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that this is a significant issue, and I understand that this is a probing amendment to allow us to consider some of the wider issues that he has touched on in the debate.

Amendment 117A seeks to include in the Bill an additional purpose: to enable debt information to be shared under the powers provided by Clause 41. It seeks to state explicitly that debt data can be disclosed,

“for the purpose of helping individuals to manage their debts”.

There is also a reference to the breathing space, and I will come back to that point in a moment in response to the questions posed by the noble Lord.

In the first instance, we would venture that the amendment is not necessary. The provisions as drafted enable information to be shared,

“for the purposes of the taking of action in connection with debt owed to”,

a public authority or the Crown. This includes but is not limited to, for example, identifying or collecting debt. The provision is sufficiently broad to enable sharing for the purpose set out in this amendment. That is the position of the Government. The Government are considering the recommendations that have been made following work to look into the merits of introducing a breathing space for customers, which we are aware is available in other jurisdictions. While the Government are considering these recommendations, it would be premature to incorporate a reference to this initiative in the Bill at this time. I hope the noble Lord will accept that the matter is being looked at.

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I understand the desire to ensure that the codes are effective; it is the desire of the Government as well. As the noble Lord observed, you can press so hard in the matter of debt recovery but, as banks and others have discovered in the past, if you press too hard something breaks and nothing is returned. We suggest that the codes provide a strong safeguard for the use of the powers, backed up by real consequences if they are not adhered to. There is a power there to ensure that although the Bill says “have regard to”, it is a legal obligation and suitably flexible in the context of these powers. While we continue to consider the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee, which also touched upon this, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the Minister very much for his considered response. I am grateful to him for that. The breathing space proposal has been around for some time, so I was hoping to get a bit of an edge on it but we will clearly have to wait and see. It would provide a very big step forward for how public debts are organised. As I said, how the code of practice is framed is the main issue and I am grateful for the Minister’s thoughts that there might still be opportunities to influence it. What was said today might do that trick but we will certainly look at it carefully. With that, I would like to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 117A withdrawn.