Committee on the Equality Act 2010 and Disability Report

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the House’s committee system is an important part of our work that allows us to bring together expertise, knowledge and information in a way that is very unusual in our public life. It is a part of our processes that we should support as long as we can. We should cherish the good examples of it that we have, including the report we are discussing, which, as many people have said, has been an exemplary exercise.

The committee is a well-timed initiative, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, but picked up quickly by those who saw the importance of a review centred on evidence that could be provided not just by those in this House, but by a wider community prepared to come in and share with us the experiences they have had of the Equality Act 2010. It is not just an ordinary review of another piece of legislation, but a real, living exercise in trying to understand the experiences people go through when they face disability, in a way many people do not. I am not one of those who has a disability that would qualify in any sense for this activity, but I have learned so much, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, by listening. It has been a pleasure. I hope the report of this debate will reach a wider community and convince people of the value of the exercise we have been listening to.

I give my thanks, which have of course already been given, to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, not only for chairing the committee, which was obviously a brilliant exercise in which everyone seems to have had a good time, which I am sure is not always the case in committees—we will pass over that—but also for her speech, which introduced the report so well and highlighted the key moments we need to focus on. Those who have spoken have largely been members of the committee, including the mobile Bench, which is a wonderful term for them, but the debate has brought in others who have also contributed. That is very good. The debate is well-timed, as has been picked up, because it is just before the beginning of the Paralympics, four years after London 2012 transformed our understanding in this country I hope for the longer term—although the evidence from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is that that is not the case. It certainly did for those of us who were there. I think I shared with the House before that one of the most interesting experiences in my life was being asked to present prizes for a couple of races in the Paralympic stadium. It was an astonishing experience that I will never, ever forget.

We have had a very good debate based on a good report, which has been described as being of a very high standard and a good read. It is important to recognise that. But the key thing is that it is evidence-rich. The report is not just the views of the committee members; it is informed, transformed and transmuted by what they have heard. It is in that sense that the Government’s response, which has come in for a fair amount of criticism, is such a disappointment, particularly the prologue, which reads more like an apologia, with a sense of doom and gloom surrounding it and the inevitability of disaster awaiting as you turn every page. The Greeks did it well. We should not learn from them in this respect. The Government owe more to the House and the community that the committee was serving, and should provide a response that at least engages with the issues, even if it does not necessarily always agree with them. If the Government really believe that they are going to build a country that works for everyone, in which we all benefit and there are no barriers or assumptions of exclusion, they have to do more than simply hold conversations and return to consultations which, as has been said, have already been carried out to exhaustion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, in a very powerful speech, and others pointed out that what you read in the Government’s response is that discussion and consciousness-raising is the way forward, when all the evidence and all the messages received by the committee and all the information that it gathered—which really cannot be ignored—is that the Government just need to get on with implementing the will of Parliament by bringing forward outstanding sections of Bills; by funding the EHRC properly to do what it was set up to do and making sure that it can do that without red tape or other considerations being brought to bear on it; and by ensuring that all those who already have responsibilities under the Acts that provide the underpinning of our approach to disability are made to deliver them. The Government must challenge what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, called the insouciance of those who will not comply or who use the reasonableness test to evade doing the right thing. They must challenge them and force them to do what is needed. That is the role of government and one that they should be proud to exercise. It will be for the benefit of all.

Before I deal with some of the recommendations, I will make two positioning points, which struck me on reading the report and the response and listening to the debate today. The first is on the numbers. I do not think it is well recognised that there are as many as 11 million disabled people in the United Kingdom. Of course, that number is complicated by the fact, which a number of people mentioned, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Brinton, that not everybody who is disabled is visible in the sense of being in a wheelchair. We ignore that point at considerable risk to the policy-making process. Eleven million people is a huge constituency and we do not do ourselves justice if we ignore them. As the report says:

“Disability affects us all—as disabled people ourselves, and as the carers, family, friends, employers, colleagues, and educators of disabled people—and it is the task of all of us to remove the barriers that prevent some from participating fully, and equally, in society”.

As has been pointed out, if that requires positive discrimination, so be it. We should do it.

Secondly, we still do not really know enough about the conditions under which those who are disabled have to operate and live. The point was made in the report and echoed by a number of speakers that more and better collection of data, and an evaluation of the cumulative impacts on disabled people, are desperately needed. Trying to bring that about would be the right place for the Government to start.

The report is full of recommendations but we have time for only a few of them. The ones I have selected are the ones where I think that more bangs would be achieved for the bucks that might have to be invested. The report refers to “20 years of inertia” in transport. So many people have raised that, I do not need to spend time on it. The Government have a huge opportunity with the need to move forward on taxis, even if they will not go back and look again at the implementation of the outstanding issues, with a Law Commission bill on taxis in the wings, I think, ready to be brought forward this year or next year. There really is no excuse for not dealing with all the issues to do with taxis. Significant points have been made about buses and trains. There are also questions about ships and hovercraft, which have not been picked up yet but are important. Because the regulation there has been repealed, with the possibility that the regulation that is currently there underpinning an EU directive not being effective after 2019, it is really important for the Government to think harder about how they are going to make the Equality Act apply so that there is accessibility, for instance, in bars and shops.

On providers of services and the duty to make reasonable adjustments, it was incredible to hear the story about the planning of Crossrail and that there was not to be step-free access to it. What will happen with HS2? Can the Minister remind us whether it will be a requirement on those responsible for building HS2—if it is still the Chinese, then we perhaps should know a bit more than we otherwise would—that proper access will be provided on that route?

In a powerful intervention, the noble Lord, Lord McColl, who is not in his place, went through the issues about taxis and raised the first point about disability training, which has been picked up so many times that I will not list your Lordships’ names. There are obviously two sides of the same coin. Without the proper investment in disability training, so many of the issues that arise in transportation in the practical sense will be ineffective. We heard further examples which were almost too difficult to listen to. There is a very easy solution to the question of audio-visual notifications, which has been picked up in legislation currently before the House.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, raised the possibility that air carriers would evade responsibility to cover the full cost of the damage that they cause to wheelchairs or mobility devices, because those can be treated as freight and not as essential parts of people’s lives. The Government could easily resolve this and I hope that the Minister can confirm that she is in discussion with the noble Lord on that point.

A number of noble Lords raised football stadia. We have in this House had the experience of seeing a Bill which would resolve that issue go through with unanimous support. Indeed, I do not think that any amendments were even put down for its final stages. As the report says:

“Many of the pleasures which most of us take for granted are denied to disabled people”,

simply because access is not made in the ways that it should be. The law is clear on this. Yet it is absolutely appalling to hear that, despite the Premier League’s commitment and undertaking that,

“its clubs will comply with the accessible stadia guidelines by August 2017”,

this is not the whole story. I think the figure given was that seven clubs may not make it and those that are promoted will not have to make it. What about those clubs in receipt of public funding? I do not want to name names but can the Minister confirm that if any football club in the Premier League is in receipt of public money, that money will be paid to it on condition that the stadium is made accessible? That should at least show the way in which power could be exercised under appropriate arrangements.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, mentioned restaurants, pubs and clubs that are difficult to access, with many not providing basic facilities such as disabled toilets. She also suggested an easy amendment to the Licensing Act, which would resolve that. Why could the Government not take that up? The designs of dwellings and common areas are processes where tenants are prepared to pay for improvements. These things could happen simply by requiring that as a condition of having that sort of common approach or in the design and planning arrangements. The Government would not have to invest heavily in it or need to carry out reviews. The research in this area is available to them and reasonable adjustments are part of the process which we all need to support.

A very important point was made that disabled people appear to be worse off than others in getting access to justice. The figures on appeals and tribunals are very significant, because of the mixture of the introduction of fees and the reduction in legal aid. Again, the Government are currently thinking about these issues and I hope that there will be something in the Minister’s response on that.

The broader issue of communication was raised, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the need to pick up on reports from the professional bodies is worrying. At a time when we are thinking about digital issues and the Digital Economy Bill is before the House, I would have thought that the Government might look at the opportunities there and see whether they could respond to them.

In conclusion, the needs of disabled people are many and complex. Much more could be done with additional resources and, as has been made clear to us tonight, the resources needed are not significant in these areas. A lot can be achieved for very little investment. It may be that the time of austerity measures is passing and therefore there will be more consideration of investment, but the recommendations should be at the top of the list. The changes listed in the report that have been turned down by the Government are quite simple and often cost-free to the taxpayer. We need the Government behind them. The time for buck-passing and evasion has gone and, as we have heard so many times, raising awareness will not be sufficient. We need action. We need law-law not jaw-jaw, as has been said. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, put it so well, the challenge to the Government is that if they wish to prove that they believe in inclusion for everybody in the country, they should reconsider their present response.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I take the opportunity to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for securing this important debate on the eve of the Paralympics, as the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, said, and on the 21st anniversary of the Disability Discrimination Act. I also thank her for coming to see me today. I understand she will be meeting the Secretary of State later this week.

I am also grateful to other noble Lords who have spoken very thoughtfully on this subject. I am particularly grateful to the mobile Bench. I did not know the noble Baronesses were called the mobile Bench or bunch, but they are certainly a very formidable line-up.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and her colleagues on the now-disbanded but certainly not forgotten Select Committee on the Equality Act 2010 and Disability for their wide-ranging report which was published in March. It is timely and comprehensive and highlights the continuing challenges and obstacles which disabled people face on a daily basis. Many examples have been given today.

I hope noble Lords will be happy—or at least less unhappy—on leaving the debate than they have been in recent months about some of the things that I am to say, which I hope will bring a bit of cheer. The committee’s report rightly focused on a number of important issues, such as how adequately we imbed disabled people’s needs into the first steps to plan services and also when we construct premises. I take the point about Crossrail incredibly seriously. I almost could not believe it when the noble Lord raised it, but so many noble Lords repeated it that I will look into the issue and find out why such a huge construction project was built without step-free access. That theme on the construction of premises has now, as noble Lords have said, been taken up by the Women and Equalities Select Committee in the other place for its own inquiry.

The report also fairly examined whether both public and private sectors have been sufficiently proactive in meeting the needs of citizens with a disability and whether there is still a tendency simply to react to problems once they have arisen or to be forced into action when pressed. We further acknowledge the importance of two-way communication between government and disabled people and their representatives, something that the report says we can improve on, in turn improving access to justice and how services are delivered.

For the bulk of what I am going to say, I now turn to points that noble Lords have raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, spoke about court fees, and I will also talk about qualified one-way costs. The Government’s post-implementation review will report in due course, and we will consult on any subsequent proposals for changes to the fees or the remissions system. Lord Justice Jackson recommended the introduction of qualified one-way costs in public injury claims, but the Government will consider the possible extension of qualified one-way costs shifting to other categories of law, including claims made under the Equality Act, in due course, once there is some experience of the regime in personal injury.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also talked about legal aid. We have made sure that legal aid continues to be available to provide access to justice for people in the most serious cases. It includes, subject to statutory means and merits tests, legal aid for disputes with local authorities about community care services for disabled people and for discrimination claims relating to the contravention of the Equality Act.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also talked about the PSED amendment to ensure that public authorities take steps towards equality rather than having “due regard”. The due regard test is well established and the courts have recognised that difficult decisions by elected politicians should not be second-guessed by the courts where all the relevant facts have been considered. The due regard requirement helps to ensure that public bodies remain conscious of equality issues throughout the process of exercising their functions. As soon as a requirement becomes more specific—the noble Baroness and I talked about this today—or task-oriented, there is inevitably the risk that many public bodies may start to think of short cuts or ways out of fulfilling their duties. That is an important point.

The noble Baroness and a couple of noble Lords talked about disabled people losing out now under the PSED. We disagree, first and foremost because two of the leading cases brought under the PSED on the spare room subsidy and the independent living fund were brought by, or on behalf of, disabled people. We feel that if public bodies were under separate duties to have regard to each of the protected characteristics in the Equality Act, we would have a more complicated and bureaucratic scheme than at present.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Thomas, and other noble Lords talked about the culmination of the change of Ministers and Ministers not being in any one department. There was also a suggestion that the Minister responsible for disabled people might be of a higher rank and a full member of the Cabinet Social Justice Committee. Following the ministerial reshuffle, I requested that I remain as a Minister in the GEO, so as far as the House of Lords is concerned, there is continuity—at least for the moment. The Government have always been clear that regardless of rank, whenever Ministers, whether for faith and integration or for disabled people, speak on disability issues, they speak on behalf of the Secretary of State. Being rank-oriented is probably not entirely helpful.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

There is a double issue about ministerial positions. The point that the Minister has made is correct but there is a question about whether there would be a greater effect on policy activity if all the Ministers could be in one department—for instance, one in DWP implies a disability focus whereas there is a bigger concept of equality and human rights. The other issue is what would happen if there were to be a British Bill of Rights as there may well be; there has been one from the Ministry of Justice.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand the noble Lord’s point. Having been in government for a very short time, I believe that if all the Ministers are in one department the attitude can be that it is another department’s responsibility. Issues on disability, race equality and women’s equality should be cross-governmental; every department should take ownership of them. We could argue about that till the cows come home, but our thinking is that it should be a cross-government approach.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, as well as the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell, Lady Brinton and Lady Deech, talked about bringing into force all sections of the Equality Act regarding taxis. We talked earlier on outside the Chamber about the best and the worst stories about taxi drivers. I had a very good experience the other week, when we spotted a disabled man whose wheelchair had run out of batteries. The taxi driver could not have done more to assist this man, who would have been helpless in the middle of the street without him. But there are terrible stories as well, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, outlined her experiences in different parts of the country.

Among the provisions in Part 12 of the Act, which concerns access to taxis and private hire vehicles for people who are disabled, those relating to the carriage of assistance dogs are now in force, while those relating to the assistance provided to wheelchair users will be commenced very soon. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, talked about enforcement—how do we make sure these people do this. It will be a criminal offence for drivers of designated wheelchair-accessible taxis or private hire vehicles to refuse wheelchair users assistance or to charge them extra. The fine will be up to £1,000. The noble Lord, Lord McColl, asked whether the Government will introduce guidance and training to supplement the introduction of the duty on taxis to take wheelchairs. The answer is yes: guidance will be produced by the Department for Transport to coincide with the introduction of the duty.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, also asked about bringing into force Section 36 of the Equality Act. We are conscious that a small number of those sections of the Act that have not been commenced are of particular relevance to disabled people. Accordingly, we are currently reviewing the position on Section 36—even though the noble Baroness might sigh at that response. The duty to make reasonable adjustments to common parts, as our response to the committee makes clear, is a complex issue, but the Government hope to conclude the review by the end of this year, and I am sure I will be taken to task if that does not happen. We will of course report our decision to the Women and Equalities Committee.

The noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Low, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady Brinton, talked about the crucial role of audio-visual on all new buses. Building on the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations, which provide a step change in accessibility for many disabled people, the Bus Services Bill makes specific provision for equipment to be fitted on vehicles that will provide all audio and visual information where the majority of operators in an enhanced partnership agree, and franchising authorities will be able to make similar requirements for the operators of their services. The Bill’s open data provisions will also help to ensure that all passengers have the information to make informed choices about their travelling options. We understand the frustration about the lack of progress in the provision of accessible information outside of London and are actively considering how its uptake can be encouraged.

A number of noble Lords asked about the cumulative impact assessment of cuts et cetera on disabled people. Considering the impact on people with disabilities and those with other protected characteristics is an integral part of the Government’s approach to their policy work. It includes measures taken at all Budgets and other fiscal events and reflects the Government’s principal commitment to fairness as well as their legal obligations.

There were a number of questions about G4S. The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, expressed concern about the contract with G4S, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I have to say that G4S was the winner of a thorough, competitive tender process for this contract to run the Equality Advisory and Support Service. We believe that the G4S group has a good background for taking on the EASS functions. During the last three years it has successfully run Child Maintenance Options, a helpline for the Department for Work and Pensions involving many of the same factors that may be present in EASS contacts: callers who may be distressed or emotionally vulnerable and cases that may be complex and span a number of calls or contacts, sometimes with people whose first language is not English. We believe that G4S’s ability to engage positively with this type of case and type of customer provides a good basis for the delivery of the helpline. More generally, it is committed to fulfilling its responsibilities in all its companies around the world by applying the UN’s 2011 Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. I hope noble Lords will be able to see beyond the immediate reaction of some NGOs and lobby groups. The Equality Advisory Support Service is an essential service that we are aiming to continue operating on a seamless basis and to the same standards as before.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, talked about training for G4S staff, which clearly is essential. We agree that training for the new G4S staff will be necessary and undertaken; in fact, it has already begun.

The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, made the point that the Government say the EHRC did not want to run the EASS but the EHRC’s response contradicts that. The EHRC did not bid to operate the helpline itself, nor did it propose operating it in discussions with the GEO. The EHRC proposed to manage the tender process but acknowledged that, because of the value of the contract and EU procurement requirements, there was insufficient time to conduct the procurement outside a preapproved framework. That was the approach that the Government used.

The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, asked why there was a difference of view between the Government and the EHRC over the EHRC taking back the EASS. To be clear on this, the EHRC’s proposal to the Government was that it wanted to reshape and retender the EASS helpline. Its proposal did not involve running the service itself. In retendering the service, the EHRC would have had to have worked within the same contractual framework as the Government, and it proposed to use the GEO resources and support to do so. That was not a cost-effective option for the Government.

The noble Baroness also talked about the EHRC’s disability committee being retained, and whether the Government would hold a meeting with the EHRC and members of that committee to discuss this matter. Now that the order to dissolve the committee has been made, the EHRC’s arrangements for its disability work are essentially a matter for the commission itself. I note that the EHRC rejected the relevant recommendation in the committee’s report. None the less, Ministers meet the EHRC chair and the chief executive from time to time, and I know they would be happy to discuss at a forthcoming meeting their plans for ensuring that its disability work remains effective and well supported by evidence.

The noble Baroness also talked about commencing Section 14 on dual discrimination. As was said in the Government’s response to the committee’s report, we are considering the future of a number of uncommenced provisions in the Equality Act 2010. Unlike, say, the uncommenced reasonable adjustment provisions, we do not see dual discrimination as a particularly well-tailored measure for disabled people.

I am running out of time so I will try to move as quickly as possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked for technical guidance from the EHRC to be laid before Parliament as codes of practice. We are yet to be persuaded that codes are the solution when technical guidance can often do an effective job, and we are certainly not aware of any concerns from those for whom the statutory code are intended—the courts, tribunals, employers and service providers—that EHRC guidance on a few areas on the Act appears in a technical non-statutory form rather than as codes. We will, however, continue to bear in mind whether codes might in some circumstances have more to offer.

I turn to sports grounds, which many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, talked about. As has been said, the Government did not support the Accessible Sports Grounds Bill because legislation already exists in the form of provisions in the Equality Act 2010 which require providers of services such as sport stadia to the public to make a reasonable adjustment—for example, a gangway—so that disabled people are not placed at substantial disadvantage. It was felt that the blanket approach adopted by the Bill departed from the careful balance achieved in the Equality Act. We note that, to date, no disabled spectator has brought a case under the reasonable adjustments provisions in that Act.

Moving on to the Premier League’s pledges for 2017, we are disappointed, as are noble Lords, by its progress and will be asking it for a far more detailed report giving a club-by-club breakdown setting out what work has been done and what is planned to meet the August 2017 deadline. The pledges were made publicly by the Premier League on behalf of clubs and we look forward to its taking action against clubs that have failed to meet their targets. If Premier League clubs fail to meet their accessibility commitments, we will expect the Premier League to take appropriate action against all non-compliance.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made an interesting point about clubs in receipt of public money and how we can hold their feet to the fire. Off the top of my head, I would imagine that clubs would be caught by state aid rules. I thought about Section 106 money being used better to enforce their obligations under the Disability Discrimination Act when work is done by clubs. Perhaps we could take that up.

I have absolutely run out of time. I should have liked to have gone through some of the things that the Government are doing. Perhaps I may put a note in the Library to outline that. There will be questions that I have not answered but, on that note, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate.