Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 6th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, how wonderful to be discussing culture and to be doing so at the very centre of the work of your Lordships’ House: the first Bill to come through in the new Parliament and as far as I recall the first Bill we have seen for nearly six years—apart from a very small gambling Bill—which deals with issues relating to that great department, DCMS. I am delighted to be here to respond on behalf of the Labour Party. Today’s debate has been of high quality and it shows that when Members of your Lordships’ House get together and talk about issues of mutual interest and concern they can bring insights and new thoughts to bear on a topic that has been far too long neglected. However, at least it is out in the open air and, indeed, the sunshine.

It is good news that after some 62 years we are bringing forward the necessary legislative arrangements for the UK to ratify the convention and the protocols of the original Hague convention. We welcome the Bill and will do what we can to make speedy progress on it, while of course ensuring that it gets proper scrutiny. As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, said, ratifying the treaty will not bring back what has been destroyed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and far too many other places but it will help in the future, as UK ratification will not only strengthen the treaty but provide the UK with the necessary international moral authority, which of course by failing to sign the treaty it has so far lacked. It should be recalled and noted that for some time the UK has been acting as though it were already part of the Hague convention. We have been doing the things necessary to comply with it, and we should congratulate those who have had the good sense to operate in that way over the years and salute the good work that has been done.

One concern that I have about the Bill is that, because it has been necessary to adopt the original definitions of the convention—indeed, the convention appears as a schedule to the Bill—we have ended up with a definition which, as others have mentioned, is largely buildings-based and focuses on artefacts. Article 1(a) talks about,

“movable or immovable property of great importance … such as monuments of architecture, art or history”.

Paragraph (b) refers to,

“buildings whose main and effective purpose is to preserve or exhibit the movable cultural property”,

and paragraph (c) talks about,

“centers containing a large amount of cultural property”.

As the Minister said in introducing the Bill, those paragraphs could be interpreted to include all cultural activity, but those of us who have had experience of how laws, once written down, are interpreted by people called lawyers may worry that the definitions are too tight and that they need to be reconsidered. It may not be possible to do that within the rubric of this Bill, because delaying it by trying to amend it may cause collateral damage in the sense of making it difficult to ratify and adopt the protocol. Many noble Lords who have spoken today, including the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, who displayed great skill in making sure that morris dancing became part of our cultural fabric—it would not perhaps have been my original choice—have made the point that I am trying to make, perhaps more graphically than I am able to do. However, I am concerned that work, which I did previously, at the British Film Institute and the BFI National Archive might not be included in the definitions, although it certainly could be if good sense were applied. I want to come back to that point later.

A related point, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, is what this country is doing to exemplify the categories that might be protected under the convention, should that be required. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to that, given the concerns that were expressed by her department in 2008, with particular reference to resources if enhanced protections are listed. The argument seems to be very clear. There is obviously an issue about scheduled ancient monuments, but not including grade 1 listed buildings and other properties of considerable cultural value to the country seems perverse. In that regard, it would be helpful if the noble Baroness could respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, about non-state cultural destruction, which a number of people have touched on—again, I should like to come back to that—and the related question of whether plans to protect UK cultural sites in case of say, terrorism, are robust. After all, we seem to have a war on terrorism but that would not be covered by this convention.

Over the years, there has been welcome evidence of an increasingly close understanding between civil and military leadership, which will be crucial if the Bill is to work properly. Going back to the original convention, two responsibilities were placed on the country, as applied to the Ministry of Defence and our military colleagues. There was not just one, and to my mind this is quite an interesting way of expressing it. The parties,

“undertake to introduce in times of peace into their military regulations or instructions such provisions as may ensure observance of the present Convention”.

I can understand that the plans for that are not yet fully advanced but it would be helpful to probe those a little in Committee, and I give notice of my intention to do so. I believe that it would be better for us all if we could understand how the responsibilities, which are fairly significant, are to be placed on members of our military personnel.

I want to pick up a second point. There is also a requirement in the convention to,

“foster in the members of their armed forces”—

the parties concerned—

“a spirit of respect for the culture and cultural property of all peoples”.

Those are good words, but I am not quite sure how that will apply to every individual member of the Armed Forces in all its branches. However, I am interested again to probe a little further into how that is intended. It seems to me a very significant amount of work and I worry that the resourcing of it will not be sufficient. However, it is very clear that the involvement and support of the MoD and all the armed services in making the convention as effective as possible will be a crucial part of this. Present evidence is that they are doing well on this, and we want to support that as we go forward.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the trade in illegal artefacts, and I am sure that this is something we will need to come back to. As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, said, it is surely of some significance that, in the 13 years since the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act came in to force, there has not been a single prosecution. Yet there seems to be evidence that something is going wrong in the art and other markets in the UK. As my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport said in a previous debate, we surely need a cross-governmental drive on law enforcement in this area which engages the police, the National Crime Agency, the Border Agency and HMRC. Although the Metropolitan Police Art and Antiques Unit is clearly very successful in monitoring the trade, again, because of the lack of prosecutions, it may need to be additionally resourced. This is something that we might need to come back to if this section of the Bill is to work well.

It is good news that there is going to be a cultural protection fund to support this legislation, and it is good news also that that is going to be administered by the British Council. However, we will still want to probe this a little in Committee as we seek answers about how this fund is to be grown or enhanced to meet additional needs. As I understand it, it is a fixed amount of money over a fixed period, but obviously once a number of projects have got going and more work is happening, we will need to think about how that fund would be refreshed and grown.

My noble friend Lady Andrews, raised a couple of what she called technical issues—although I think they strike at the heart of the Bill—in relation to the definitions that have been used. The Hague convention refers to a “serious violation” of the protocol but the current legislation refers to a “serious breach”. It may be that there is an easy answer to this, and I hope that we will be able to resolve that by the time we get through Committee.

There is also a question around why the scope of criminal liability for an ancillary offence under the law of England and Wales differs from that in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Again, that is a matter that I am sure can be tidied up without detriment to the overall progress of the Bill.

Finally on this point, as others have pointed out, five members of the UN Security Council have still not ratified the convention, so there is some work to be done through diplomatic channels once we have joined. This needs to be picked up and driven forward. We are either all in this together, in which case there may be an opportunity to do some good, persuasive and continuing work, or there will be those who will work against it.

As I said earlier, it is a bit of a worry that during today’s debate, a lot of anxiety has been expressed about how the Bill is framed and how it will work in the modern world. It is limited in definition, as I pointed out, and limited in scope, as others have picked up, and of course there are a lot of new cultural forms that might need to be included. The noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, asked why the Bill applies only to state interaction and not those that we have seen in the Middle East. There is also a new dimension that perhaps needs special focus: the idea that somehow an attack on cultural objects is part of the battle and that by destroying cultural objects one can win more than if one respected them.

These points are all important but it may not be appropriate to take them forward in this Bill. I therefore leave it with the Minister that in parallel to the progress of this Bill, we should be thinking about a third protocol—perhaps we can discuss it in Committee—to be offered as an entry prize for having signed up to the existing two protocols. We could make it three in a row and add an additional point that would update and refresh this work as we go forward. That may be ambitious progress, but it is not unachievable.

There is a duty on us all in this Parliament not to delay further the progress that has already been made in ratifying this convention and protocols so that the UK can finally show its wholehearted commitment to the protection of universal cultural heritage, establish consistency with our pride in our own history, and signal our shared human values and culture. We will do what we can to expedite the passage of the Bill, subject always to the need to ensure that no legislation agreed by your Lordships’ House is done without appropriate scrutiny.