Online Safety Bill [HL]

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Friday 17th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I join others in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, who is such a doughty campaigner on this issue. She said that this is her fourth Second Reading, which must be something close to a record. I think I have been in on all the debates. I have been watching her with interest. She is so clever at getting these things up and speaking so well about them. She set out the ambitions of the Bill with great clarity. In turn, it has set the tone for what has been a very interesting and good debate. I say at the very start that we on this side of the House support the Bill’s ambitions.

In passing, I ask the House to note that, until now—and, I hope, for a long time to come—the approach to the issues raised in this Bill has never split along party lines. We have been able to maintain broad agreement on all sides of the House about what should be the main thrust of policy.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Shields, to what I think is her first appearance at the Dispatch Box. She must be quivering with nerves and worry about it. I reassure her that her experience and skills in this field mean that she is well equipped to lead policy in this area. I am sure that what she says will be of great interest and we look forward to it.

The answer to many of the issues that have been raised in this debate is education. Indeed, that is reflected in the Bill, although it comes quite late in a number of paragraphs. It will get us a long way down the road, but, as the noble Lord, Lord McColl, said in his refreshingly brief intervention—I am afraid that he is not in his place—education is necessary but it may not be sufficient.

I note from the Library’s helpful briefing note for this debate that in December 2014, the Government announced an extra £500,000 of funding for the Safer Internet Centre, which aims to provide advice to schools about online safety, which has also been added to the national curriculum. Recently, the Prime Minister also announced actions to tackle online child sexual abuse at an international level. I would be grateful if the Minister could update us on progress on both those issues.

Since the last debate in your Lordships’ House on this topic, I have been involved with the Metropolitan Police’s parliamentary programme. As part of that, I visited the child pornography unit. That visit shocked me considerably and has changed my mind about this issue. The volume of activity referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, in a very powerful intervention, and the growing problem of the way in which those who participate in this action do so through the dark web and encryption, means that the resources which are available to pursue this are very stretched. I pay tribute, as she did, to the staff of this unit for the exceptional work they do. I do not know how they do it. I certainly could not do it but their persistence and skill should be commemorated in some way. They are, of course, absolutely at the forefront of the protection of vulnerable children. I drew from my discussions with the staff in that unit the fact that there was a need for legislation to bolster the work they do. That is something we should bear in mind.

I noted that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, quoted in her opening remarks something that was said to her by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, about the difference in approach towards online and offline material in this area. There is a good foundation of statutory provision for offline material, which other noble Lords have mentioned, whereas online material is left to voluntary arrangements. Our position on this has been that self-regulation should be tried first. However, we have made it clear that if satisfactory agreements are not forthcoming on a voluntary, self-regulatory basis, we think that there is a case for legislation. So the question is: has this Bill’s time come?

As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said, the Conservative Party manifesto seems to imply that the Tories would introduce measures to compel pornographic sites to adopt age verification measures. Like others, I would be grateful if the Minister would say specifically and without doubt whether or not this is the Government’s policy. Clearly, this Bill is an opportunity to deliver that statutory underpinning—if it is there. The noble Baroness will tell us whether or not the Government are going to pick up this Bill, but it would certainly mean an early resolution of the points made by senior Ministers, including the Prime Minister, and would, I think, get her out of a difficult spot.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, I think there is a need to build on age verification by “following the money”. I understand that the credit card companies have said that they would happily withdraw payment facilities from non-compliant sites. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, referred to technical issues. We should listen to him because there are problems with regard to, on the one hand, the internet being considered as merely a vehicle for communications and, on the other, the fact that it links up to services which may need to be regulated. We need to find a solution that is regulatory possible and compliant and technically feasible. Nevertheless, the idea that the money would not follow those who wish to reach unlicensed sites seems to be working in the gambling area, as we have heard, so that is something the Government should take advice on and possibly pursue.

This debate has been largely about children—rightly so—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, there are wider issues of cybersecurity in play, which we need to bear in mind. Also, as the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, reminded us, we have to consider social media sites and a much wider concern about bullying and the impact of peer-on-peer pressure through the internet. But there is also another dimension to this. Research shows that those who are vulnerable—those with disabilities, those in low socioeconomic groups and families who have suffered trauma—are also much more vulnerable when they are online. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester said, there is probably a much larger group of people who are at risk than simply children. Perhaps later stages of the Bill might address that point.

Finally, we have heard from the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that there is an EU interest to be accommodated here. I would be grateful if the Minister could bring us up to date with what is happening in Europe, particularly on the telecoms single market directive. As I understand it, the final text of the directive will go for ratification to the relevant European institutions later this year. I understand it is likely that the directive will require every member state to enact legislation to allow the deployment of parental-control software at network level. We do not currently have such legislation so the implication is that what we currently do in the UK, which is largely voluntary, would not be able to continue once the directive is in force. Clearly, if that is the case, the Bill could provide the vehicle for the Government not only to do some good in this area but—perhaps uniquely—to prove their good EU credentials, and get ahead.