Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Main Page: Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Labour - Life peer)Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts(9 years, 11 months ago)
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“( ) A person cannot be appointed by a Minister of the Crown under subsection (1) if the person is a current or immediately past board member of the regulator.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, the Bill creates a duty on the relevant Minister of the Crown to appoint a person for each non-economic regulator. As the person is variously described it is a bit confusing, both in the Bill and in the notes, as to exactly what they will be called. It might be worth having a further discussion about this at some point, but for the purposes of this amendment my eye was drawn to the phrase in the notes “Small Business Appeals Champion”.
An additional point to make here is that it is quite refreshing to read of a Government who are prepared to go hammer and tongs into adding new regulations to an area. I am not one who is necessarily against regulation in principle, as good regulation drives a lot of good things, but this has quite a set of layers of regulation in it. Given that we are also considering the Deregulation Bill, and indeed have been faced with a number of attempts to try to reduce regulation, we ought to be quite clear what we are doing here. Although I make a trivial point about the name, it is also important.
The aim is to ensure that there are clear and effective procedures and processes in place, so that businesses—again, it seems to be defined as “businesses”—can challenge regulatory decisions, should they feel that they have been treated unfairly. I put on record that we support this approach. We are aware of the previous history of this: in the publication Small Business, Great Ambition it was said that businesses were not always confident that there was a clear pathway to challenge decisions by a regulator. It is good that the Government have recognised this and want to come forward with proposals. It is also interesting that, in the evidence for that, it is clear that two issues are in play here. Businesses did not know how to challenge decisions—I imagine that is more at the smaller end of the market—but they also found that it was either too expensive or too time-consuming, or both, which again rings true to anybody with experience in this area.
In the consultation issued by the Government prior to the preparation of the Bill, Small Business Appeals Champion and Non-Economic Regulators—it perhaps gave away its content in its title—the Government explained that,
“given the range of different statutory arrangements … the Government will need to give individual consideration to the application of the policy to each regulator before the policy is implemented”.
That is a large amount of work given the number of regulators that have been revealed as a result of our work on the Deregulation Bill, for which a parallel but different set of regulations is of course being imposed. Can the Minister update us on how they are doing on this? It will be quite an extensive trawl through a number of regulators that were set up over the years. It is important that we have some sense of how we are getting on and whether any lessons can be learnt from that experience.
Cutting to the chase, a small business appeals champion—or whatever name we agree on—will be appointed to every non-economic regulator. These will be quite important people, particularly for small businesses, because they will be concerned about, and seek redress, when regulators introduce new regulations that might be against the best interests of their businesses. I worry that the Bill is not very sharp about the regulatory powers and responsibilities. Will they be sufficient? Will they be adequate to achieve what they set out to do? Will it be more than just a talking shop?
Individual appointments to the regulator will be by a Minister of the Crown. The Bill states that they will either be statutory office-holders within the regulator or be appointed by the Minister of the Crown in respect of the regulator’s functions—presumably as additional personnel. I am concerned about this. The power of a small business appeals champion will lie in their ability to challenge the regulatory functions that they are appointed to review. Perhaps the Minister will explain this when she responds, but it does not seem to me that a person who is already employed by the regulator is in a very strong position to criticise the regulator’s activities. Could she talk us through this? Are they not meant to be independent? It would be very unusual to have someone in a position of reviewing or providing reports to external bodies about a particular body if they are employed by that body. It might be better if they are board members and maybe they should be appointed in a particular capacity to each board, but the range envisaged in the Bill seems to be too large for this to be appropriate.
To take further examples, what happens if a reviewer has to comment to the Minister on the way that the regulatory duties are discharged by his or her boss? Is there not a problem there? The employee will have a duty of care that might be breached if they are expected to make recommendations in public that will end up being considered in Parliament. Noble Lords begin to see where I am going. This is almost like a whistleblower. Parliament has considered this topic and will return to it later in this Bill, but real concerns have been expressed about how we treat whistleblowers. Their effectiveness is entirely related to whether they can make their comments without being subsequently sorted out by the powers that be in their organisation.
Similar points came up on whether an employee in a regulator would have sufficient knowledge and expertise to do the job envisaged by the Bill. It seems to me that someone who reviews the work of a regulator would need to be at the board level. Although there will be no doubt excellent people further down the chain, I doubt whether they would have the experience or expertise, or be senior enough, to take a view.
There is also an intention in the clause that one reviewer would be appointed to each national, non-economic regulator in some cases but to groups of regulators in others. For instance, some regulators, groups of industries or groups of functions will work in roughly the same area; the suggestion is that one regulator could cover them all. Is there a list of the regulators that would likely be grouped together? If there is not, could we get that in play? That is quite important. For instance, we could consider one regulator for energy, but we could also think that there would need to be different expertise relating to gas or to water, as opposed to some of the other utilities. There is also the asymmetry of expertise and experience that I have already mentioned. For instance, if a reviewer was employed by one regulator but was expected to review and critique a cognate regulator—or even a very different one—one would worry about whether they had the expertise, or whether they would be able to criticise a sister organisation operating in the same field.
I am afraid that I have asked a lot of questions. I should have made clear that this is merely a probing amendment. We support the general approach, but we would be grateful to have a bit more detail so that the Committee could better appraise whether this is a good move. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment relating to the appointment of small business champions—my snappier, if less accurate, title for them. I agree that sometimes we need to regulate, especially, as in this case, to make regulation better.
The Government have brought forward these clauses because we want to ensure that regulators’ appeals and complaints processes are accessible and fair, and work for business. We want to make sure that, if a business wants to challenge a poor regulatory decision, there is a clear and easy-to-understand process to make a complaint or appeal to that regulator. I agree with many of the noble Lord’s comments.
How are we progressing with identifying regulation? The consultation closed last Friday. It is on the government website. We will make final regulations with our proposals for listing regulators once the Bill is approved. Our proposed list was set out in the consultation. What regulators will be grouped together? We have not decided on that, but we will certainly look at it once the list of regulators is finalised in the light of the comment that the noble Lord made.
Turning to the amendment before us, the Government intend that the small business appeals champion policy should apply to a diverse range of national regulators, with equally diverse circumstances. For example, there are large regulators, some with statutory governance arrangements, complex stakeholder groups and thousands of staff, such as the Health and Safety Executive, the Care Quality Commission and the Environment Agency. However, there are also tiny regulators with few staff, where there is no board and the legal responsibility for regulating lies with the Secretary of State, such as the Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate, the Animals in Science Regulation Unit or the Senior Traffic Commissioner. There is something in between as well, such as the Office for Nuclear Regulation or the Charity Commission. We have designed this policy so that it has the flexibility to work across this varied array. A key part of that flexibility is around appointments.
I agree with the noble Lord that in some cases it may not be appropriate to appoint a board member as a champion. For instance, if the board is involved in the appeals process, it would create a conflict of interest. However, in other cases, it could be a positive advantage to appoint a board member as the champion. A non-executive director might be uniquely well placed to combine an understanding of the needs of regulated businesses and an intimate knowledge of the way the regulator works. There is not an unlimited supply of people of talent and objectivity who are prepared to take on public roles of this kind and familiarity can be a distinct advantage, especially in very technical areas.
The Government do not agree that the appointment should be limited to exclude regulators’ board members. We have deliberately placed responsibility for appointing champions with the relevant Minister, supported by his or her departmental officials, and not with the regulator, to ensure that someone of appropriate independence and stature is chosen. We should trust Ministers to be responsible for ensuring that an appropriate appointment is made, and not constrain them as the amendment proposes. In carrying out the recruitment process, the Minister and the Government will, of course, ensure adherence to any relevant guidelines such as the Code of Practice for Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies. I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by what I have said and agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very clear exposition. I agree that we should focus on small business champions—I will try to do that, although it gets a bit complicated later on. Who is involved and what sort of bodies are likely to be grouped together are obviously a work in progress and I hope to get information on that as we go forward as it shapes the way in which we respond to this issue. We may wish to return to that at a later stage.
I understand the point the Minister makes about the need to have expertise and a sufficient number of high-calibre people doing this important work. It will help small businesses and, as I said, we support it. However, I think that the conflict-of-interest point has resonance. Her examples do not necessarily reassure me that, simply because the appointment comes from outside and is made by somebody who is not themselves the regulator, that will provide the degree of independence, authority, expertise and single-mindedness of purpose that will be required if this is to be effective. However, for the purposes of this debate in Committee, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
In some sense this group of amendments is the continuation of the earlier debate, but it now focuses on the reports that may come from whatever system is set up for these small business appeals champions—although here they are sometimes called the “Independent Complaints Commissioner”. I am not sure where that fits into it; perhaps there is another whole area of bureaucracy that I have not yet managed to uncover.
The Bill is very helpful in setting out the duties and functions of the review process. The overall objective is to encourage the regulator to improve and to simplify the appeals and complaints processes that businesses should follow if they wish to challenge or appeal a regulatory decision. The requirements are quite onerous: annually, each reviewer—obviously we still do not know how many there will be—has to review the effectiveness of the relevant regulator’s procedures and prepare a report about his or her findings, which may include an assessment about whether those are accessible and fair, as well as recommendations for improvement. Those recommendations can go either to the Minister of the Crown—which might be relevant and appropriate, given that that most of the time that person will be making the appointment, and that would certainly have to be the case, presumably, if legislation was to follow—or they can go to the regulator themselves if it is just a simple matter of a change of procedures. It would be helpful if the Minister could give us a bit more detail on that.
On the narrower question of whether a report has to go to the Minister of the Crown simply because it involves changes in the law, this does not give quite enough depth or sketch in some of the things that will come. The reviewer may not be in a position to give a formal recommendation that there has to be a change in the law—they may say, simply, “This is something which I’ve picked up, which I think is important for small businesses, and I refer it to the Minister for appropriate action”. The appropriate action may well not necessarily be legal; it may be some form of instruction to the regulator, or that some regulatory bodies need to work closer together, or some other things. I am not trying to be difficult—the way it is expressed is just a bit narrow. If the Minister can perhaps find the words to explain that in a more rounded context, that might be helpful as we go forward.
I am moving Amendment 33D, but in this group we also have Amendments 33E, 33F and 33L. The point raised in Amendment 33E, which is minor but important, is the suggestion that the review should also reflect on any discriminatory practices that exist. We are aware—more anecdotally than evidence based, although it is still important—that there are concerns about some issues to do with diversity in other areas, which are in the law and legally applied to individuals, but we are talking about small businesses, for which there may therefore be concerns. This might be a good point to try to think harder about making sure that the way this is framed also includes the question about discrimination and wider issues to do with that area of work.
Amendment 33F suggests that there may be issues where an individual company may feel that the regulations that have been imposed are not only against them but mean that they are being discriminated against. Therefore, again, it would be helpful if consideration was given, perhaps in the regulations, to making a broader pass through this, including recommendations for mitigating steps that might be taken, if an assessment by a reviewer concludes that discrimination has taken place.
On Amendment 33L, Clause 20 places a duty on the independent complaints commissioner or small business champion to produce an annual report on his investigations under the scheme as regards the FSA regulators, which are specifically carved out in one part of the Bill—although, obviously, that is because they already carry out many of the functions that the reviewer in the Bill would carry out. However, for completeness, and to make sure that there is no gap between them, might it not be sensible just to include within the Bill a very clear inclusion paragraph that would make sure that they also have to look at unfair and discriminatory practices under the scheme? I beg to move.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I rise to warn the Committee—and I hope that the Minister will accept this warning—of the danger of the enactment of good-heartedness for the sake of it. There is a phrase in the amendment that symbolises that. The amendment that we are discussing with the first one contains the expression,
“protecting individuals from unfair treatment and promoting a fair and more equal society”.
I am all in favour of a fair and more equal society, but I cannot think of anything that is more likely to make people feel that all this stuff is yet again a whole collection of persiflage rather than the serious matter we are talking about. This is not about small businesses; it is not what small businesses are about. It is a perfectly reasonable statement but not something that we should be putting into the Bill. I am surprised that it is in the amendment.
That enables me to say what I really wanted to say, which is that I think this is a good and necessary Bill. However, we have to remember that we also have a commitment to reducing red tape and reducing the appearance of red tape. I want to make a point about the appearance of red tape. Very often people think that something is restrictive or difficult because there is an awful lot of it. I have always believed that we ought to have a law saying that we cannot introduce any new laws unless we take away at least the same number of lines from the present laws, so as not to make people feel that they are overwhelmed by what is before them.
This seemed to me to be a reasonable moment, before the Minister rises, to say to the noble Lord opposite that there is a responsibility in setting down amendments so as not to give the impression that we are prepared to load people with a whole lot of things that may be politically correct, nice things to say, or something that might be added to a speech, but which, frankly, make people feel that the Government are constantly after them with all sorts of nebulous thoughts and ideas to which we can all sign up, but which ought to be left to people to decide for themselves as to their purpose. They should not be written down in this way.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for her comments. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, took exception to the content of my remarks. It was clearly a probing amendment in an attempt to dig out some of the issues. I am sure that he is as guilty of that as I am in his previous lives, and I have no worry at all about standing here, and will continue to do it. However, the noble Lord might want to bear in mind the fact that the Minister said that the guidance coming forward will indeed cover all the points that I raised in the amendments—probably better than I would have done. I am certainly confident that the points I made will be picked up and taken forward. In that sense, I am delighted to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, to be clear, this is a probing amendment, which could be called the “lowest minded” of my amendments today, because I simply cannot make sense of Clause 22. I will be grateful for any guidance that the Minister can give.
First, Clause 22 defines statutory, regulatory and qualifying regulatory provisions. I am surprised that these need to be defined again in this Bill; in no sense do I accuse the Government of being otiose as regards wanting to repeat legislation, but perhaps the Minister can explain why that is necessary. These seem to be bog-standard—I am sorry; I am sure that that is not a parliamentary term—or very obviously standard phrases that are used commonly within legislative processes and they should not need redefining. If there is a story behind that, I would like to know it. The only point that comes out is that the issues that seem to be defined are that the Secretary of State has discretion to make whatever regulation he or she may wish to at an appropriate time. That seems very close to a Henry VIII power and I would like clarification that that is not the case. I beg to move.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said reinforces my view that the question of impact has not been carefully thought through. Perhaps the most difficult thing in the previous clause is the question of the methodology. You could have any number of economics professors lined up across the equator and they would all completely disagree about the methodology for an economic impact assessment on this subject. If in addition you have a way of cherry-picking by regulation the regulators that you wish to be included in the impact statement, the thing becomes quite byzantine.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for tabling this probing amendment. To answer his question I will explain the purpose of the clause. The Government have significantly improved the regulatory environment for business, as I have already explained. There has also been some encouraging progress at an EU level. This December’s EU Competitiveness Council conclusions on better regulation were extremely positive, calling for the first time for EU burden reduction targets. Therefore, the issue now goes wider than the UK. Building on those achievements, the Government are legislating to lay the framework for transparent regulatory reporting.
On Amendment 33P, I acknowledge that the framing of the business impact target sets a wide scope for future Administrations to determine for themselves what will count for the purposes of the target; that is, what is a “qualifying regulatory provision”. We consider it prudent to allow sufficient flexibility for future Administrations to determine the precise scope of the target, depending on their priorities and circumstances. We believe that this approach should attract support on all sides, not least at this stage of the Parliament.
Potentially a wide range of regulations could be in scope, meaning that some adjustment may be necessary to avoid perverse outcomes or other adverse impacts. For example, it may not be sensible to include certain measures—such as those related to national security or civil emergencies—within the target, because they could not be anticipated at the start of, say, the five-year parliamentary term. In addition, a future Government may wish to exclude measures that have negligible impacts on business, such as simple consolidations of existing regulations. Including all such measures in the target could be disproportionate and would represent a poor use of taxpayers’ resources without delivering obvious benefits to business.
The fundamental point is that the choices that a future Administration make regarding the scope of a business impact target will be transparent and will be for the Government of the day to defend. It is not appropriate for this Government or for Parliament unduly to restrict that choice. I hope that that is not byzantine but sensible and that on reflection noble Lords will feel that it is a reasonable rationale.
My noble friend raised the important issue of methodology and I agree with him that you can have as many methods as you have economics professors. However, it is an important principle that we need transparency around methodology and, of course, methodology is an important component of the good work that a body such as the RPC does. It is entirely appropriate that the Government of the day are able to look at the methodology options in a transparent way, to make appropriate decisions and to put them before Parliament. I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I prefaced what I said by saying that it was a very low-minded question. I hoped that I would get an answer to my concern, which was that I did not understand why we had to regulate in the Bill for stuff that I thought was taken as read more generally. Perhaps that was too detailed or too low a question to be answered on the Floor of the House. Perhaps the Minister might write to me about it. I do not think that it is a major issue.
The major issue is the one raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, which is increasing my sense of concern—“panic” might be too strong a word—arising from some of the ways in which Clause 21, in particular, is described. It is not just the slightly odd use of the word “things”. This is a complicated set of calculations with a new quango being set up to look at it, with all the other things that go with that. I think that we will come back to it, as I have an amendment later that deals with the way in which this might be amended. At this stage, I will certainly withdraw the amendment, although I think that we will need to come back to some of the points raised.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 33Q and the others in the group, I think that this is probably again at the low end of the scale. I am again grasping for some sort of assurance from the Minister about where most of this bites. This set of amendments is about the relationship between the work that is going to be undertaken in relation to business impact activity and voluntary or community bodies. The question also arises: what are business activities? In the good old days, voluntary or community bodies and charities did not do business. That was fairly straightforward. They were there for social and other provisions.
However, as we get to a more complex and richer—and I admit in some ways better—set of arrangements under which the work of the state is delivered, whether through public bodies directly or through those commissioned to do it, then obviously we have a much more complicated set of bodies and organisations involved. As is listed in the Bill, they range from charities through to community interest companies, trade unions, voluntary bodies and various other groups. They are all involved in delivering public value of some kind, but not all of them are going to be classified as business activities. The choice of the definition, which takes a rather theoretical point of view that a body is not undertaking business activity if it is in some way controlled by a public body, seems to me very tight.
The purpose of this group of amendments is to try to flesh this out and to get the Minister in her response to explain why she has approached the matter in this way, to understand the limitations on that and to give us a better understanding of how small businesses can operate within this environment. I am sure that all Members of the Committee and the wider community are aware of charities and others who have taken corporate forms that would make them very similar to small businesses. They may, indeed, be small businesses in terms of the definition. They may not be profit seeking, but that in itself is not now a consideration. They may not be profit distributing, but they may still have activities. While it might be comfortable to think of trade unions as being truly business activities—because they probably are a contribution to the national business activity—it does not necessarily imply that they are easy to understand in the same scope as, say, a small business trying to undertake work regulated in the energy area that is suffering from decisions that are going to cause it difficulty in trying to formulate a business plan to operate its activities and make a profit, which is what it will be there to do. So I am confused. I would be grateful, when the Minister responds to these amendments, if she could set out in a bit more detail where this bites.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his questions and for allowing us to debate these important provisions. I will start by answering the question about coverage and refer him to Clause 27(2)(b), where he will see that businesses activities are defined as including activities,
“by a voluntary or community body”.
The definition is broad and includes the voluntary sector. I can understand why that is.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
That is, of course, true and I have read that. Clause 27(2) specifies that, but Clause 27(3) says that they do not count as business activities if they are controlled by a public body, or are,
“acting on behalf of a public authority in carrying out the activities”.
We are back on a rather circuitous argument.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The noble Lord has anticipated me. Voluntary shops presumably would be covered, but I will come on to talk about why there is a carve-out for public services, which is a slightly different point; I think that it is in the noble Lord’s last amendment.
Perhaps I should also, before I answer on individual amendments, talk a little about the verification body. It could of course be the RPC, which already exists, but the Bill allows flexibility for the Government of the day to decide on the precise body that they want, the people who are on that committee and the mechanics of how they are remunerated. At the moment, they get paid a daily rate, which seems fine to me. The Secretary of State will be under a duty to appoint a person, people or a body to perform the verification function. The body or persons must, in the view of the Secretary of State, be independent of UK Ministers and have expertise in economic and cost-benefit appraisal and the impact of regulation on business—including, significantly and importantly, smaller businesses. They will obviously also be subject to the usual public appointments rules.
Returning to the amendments, I think that there is a strong consensus on the importance of minimising regulatory burdens on voluntary and community bodies. Those bodies range from Cancer Research UK at the upper end to local community football clubs or parent-teacher associations. They are affected by many of the regulatory burdens affecting businesses, including reporting requirements. That is why the economic impact of regulations affecting the activity of those bodies is explicitly included in the scope of our target and it is why they are included in other regulatory reform proposals in the Bill. Moreover, as noble Lords will be aware, the Government have made a number of changes that have made it easier to set up and run charities and social enterprises. For example, we have provided greater legal clarity about volunteer liability and supported proposals to make criminal record checks simpler and less onerous.
However, the Government are not convinced of the need for the two amendments tabled today. The vast majority of voluntary and community bodies are small and will therefore already be covered by the existing reporting requirement set out in Clause 23(4). As well as being fewer in number, larger charities can call on greater resources and are able to mitigate the impact of regulatory burdens more easily than smaller charities. The amendment would therefore have the unintended consequence of weakening the focus of the reporting requirement on mitigating disproportionate burdens and undermine its intended impact. It also means that the benefits of the amendment in extending the reporting requirement to community and voluntary bodies in general would be limited.
Amendments 33U and 33N relate to the expertise of the independent verification body. I understand that there is a desire to deliver a clear specification of expertise—that is, regarding small business, community and voluntary bodies, as well as businesses in general. However, the Government’s view is that the clause already provides sufficiently for that outcome. Clause 25(6) requires that the independent verification body must have expertise in assessing the likely impact of regulation on business activities, including activities carried on by smaller-scale businesses or voluntary or community bodies. The Government consider it most important that the verification body has substantive expertise in assessing the economic impact of regulation on voluntary and community bodies, not just on commercial business. That is reflected in the membership of the existing Regulatory Policy Committee. However, securing that outcome does not require a change to the Bill.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 33X and the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about the carve-out for public sector bodies. The Government’s primary focus in the Bill is reducing regulatory burdens on business and the third sector. Subsection (3) therefore excludes from the definition of qualifying activities those carried out by public sector bodies or that are related specifically to the delivering of a public service. Public sector regulatory burdens are of course important, but they are clearly beyond the scope of a business impact target. Including them within the target system would lose the clarity of focus on business—small business in particular—so essential to the growth agenda.
This carve-out also avoids unintentionally capturing regulations concerning requirements of public sector delivery—for example, schools, prisons and NHS services. We feel that it would be perverse to capture within the target the impacts associated with regulations relating purely to the provision of public services in that way. Doing so would lead to significant changes in reported impacts arising purely from changes in public sector delivery arrangements. For example, where service delivery was transferred from the public to the private sector, or the other way round, the effect would be an increase/decrease in the reported burden on business.
I hope that that explains the rationale for the provisions and why it is important that they are retained. I hope that the noble Lord will have found that reassuring and will be willing to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Not quite. I do not think that it is reassuring. I am getting more and more like the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, as we go through the day. Is the Minister really saying that every PTA in the country will have to be in scope to this quango? I may be thought bonkers, but this is getting beyond a joke. We are talking about a Government so dedicated to deregulation that they will require my Little Missenden parish council school to get together in a way to ensure that it has proper regulatory functions in place and understands the process of regulatory procedures to the point at which it can appeal and go to see a small business champion, who will, of course, be far too busy dealing with big business problems. I understand, I think, that the regulatory structures need to be reformed a little, but one only has to read pages 26 and 27 to become completely hysterical about what we are saying. We have talked about things already, but the wording here does not strike one as being a wonderfully clear and concise expression of the new regulatory burden.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
We are building on existing good practice, which I have explained. If small bodies such as the ones that the noble Lord described are affected by a new regulation, it seems right that the impact should be considered in the assessment by the independent body—the sort of compliance assessments that we rely on to look at the impact of regulation. It could, of course, be de minimis. That would be perfectly possible in the circumstances described by the noble Lord, but to exclude them does not seem to be right. This is in relation to the impact target; we are particularly focused on that at the moment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but I do not see a de minimis provision here. Perhaps the noble Baroness can take that away to look at. It is similar to what the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, was saying. It looks like a many-headed Hydra and I do not think that that is what was meant. I think that it is meant to be a much simpler cut-through to try to find a balance between ensuring that those who are adversely affected by regulatory practice have a mechanism recognising that they are so affected and having a way of resolving it without suddenly putting the aegis of the country on a war-time footing alert that they are going to be attacked by the bureaucrats who will be coming to get them. I extend to make my point.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, given the concern that has been raised and given that, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, says, our intentions are certainly to cut red tape rather than the reverse, I shall be happy to discuss this before Report if that would be helpful.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)
My Lords, I think that my interests in this are understood by most in the Room, in that I chair the Better Regulation Executive. I simply want to help by providing a little clarity here. What we are in fact trying to capture in this regulation—I say “we”, because the Better Regulation Executive has had some input into its drafting—is to ensure that what works very well at the moment is set in place in statute for the future and that the impact of regulations on the business community is understood. While this looks complex on paper as drafted, in practice it is largely what is happening now. It is not creating some bureaucratic monster that is having difficulty interrogating every small community business. However, it is important that the impact of legislation as proposed by departments on small and medium-sized businesses is understood. The expertise within the body is essential to this effect, but the quality of the impact assessment is the role of the statutory body. The business department must carry out the impact assessment and, in doing so, take into account the impact of legislation on SMEs. The independent body must then verify whether the impact assessment has been as robust as it should be.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, that is helpful and a conversation around some of these issues might be revealing. While what the noble Lord, Lord Curry, has said is probably a statement of where we are, I say to him only that we are forgetting that a new and proper quango has to be established. That is not the current situation. A number of reviews, reports et cetera are also built into the legislation. Again, those may be the status quo, but they are not currently given statutory provision. It is about balancing the additional statutory provision against the benefits that may or may not flow and, in a third dimension, against the extent to which this now appears to apply to people who probably carried on their daily lives without any previous understanding that they were in danger of being taken on by the people from Whitehall, who know best. However, we have said enough on this and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.