Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
Main Page: Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Labour - Life peer)
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, who is doughty campaigner on this issue, on securing leave to bring forward this Bill for a second Second Reading. It has been an enjoyable and wide-ranging debate that has reached out into all areas that should be covered by this topic. I also congratulate the Government on the work they have been doing on this issue of online child protection, continuing the work started by the previous Administration—particularly, the Byron report.
It is good to note that until now and, I hope, for a long time to come, questions such as these have never split along party lines. We have all been able to maintain broad agreement about what should be the main thrust of policy. But first a word of caution: it seems to me that the latest technology is always blamed for the current moral panic. Shakespeare’s Globe is built where it is because the then powers that be were concerned that his plays would have an adverse effect on the lower orders. Penny dreadfuls, video nasties, pornography generally, the internet and gaming are all blamed for the faults that we see in society and are reflected back in whatever it is that those we care about are doing. We have to remember, as has been said already in this debate, that the internet is a wonderful tool—but it is a tool, not a person. It cannot be evil in itself, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack suggested, because those who use it make it so—if that is indeed what we think. We must not, therefore, get too excited and carried away about this. We have to reflect and act with careful consideration on the basis of evidence.
There is no causal relationship, as I understand it, between the internet and many of today’s concerns. Indeed, when we talk about this issue in language that reflects things such as the “dark internet”, epidemics, floods, negative influences, or the perversity that it encourages, you have to believe that in some senses we have already made up our minds about what we think about this. Indeed, it might be that, “We’re all doomed”, in the words of that famous phrase. The history of how we have dealt with moral panics in the past should give us some cause for hope, even though the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, which were picked up by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others on the impact of the internet on our young people and the technologies that it reflects give us cause for concern.
My noble friend Lady Massey and others mentioned the film made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, “InRealLife”. I should declare an interest because my then 19 year-old son had a cameo part in that film. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, deals with the addictive nature of the net, and this issue does not get enough discussion. Many aspects of games and other internet-based materials seem to be designed around reward technology, which in turn can make young people make bad choices—or, arguably, unable to make choices. This is not something that gets picked up a lot but is a key feature of her film.
The answer to many of the problems that have been raised so far is education—indeed, that is reflected in the Bill. We on this side of the House believe that the right way to approach this issue is to help parents by empowering them and by self-regulation. I note that the Prime Minister has made it clear that were satisfactory agreements not to be forthcoming on a voluntary, self-regulatory basis, he would not hesitate to step in and legislate. Mind you, the intention is not always followed by the deed, and sometimes it can have quite unexpected consequences. I suggest that the lobbying—or gagging—Bill is a case in point. As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, rightly said, it will be interesting to hear from the Minister whether the Government are minded to support the opportunity that this Bill provides to deliver that statutory underpinning promised by the Prime Minister.
As has been raised in this debate, there are some reservations about the exact way in which the Bill will deal with the issue that it seeks to resolve. We have talked a lot about age verification. It is true that in relation to online gambling age verification for every customer is already mandatory under the Gambling Act 2005, a measure brought in under the previous Administration. However, that was designed for different purposes, and it may be robust but it may not be sufficient for the present purpose.
As we have heard, the mobile phone networks have also been using age verification since 2005 as a mechanism for allowing their existing filters to be lifted on request. We need to be sure that a robust system of age verification is available and that it can be effective. If this is the way we are going to go, there should be absolutely no possibility of loopholes, such as exist with Tesco and BlackBerry. These are clearly scandals and should be addressed. Can the Minister explain whether any work is being done on this by his department?
The question of how filters work is basically a technical one but it raises all sorts of issues about what is caught and whether the filters will do the job required. We have a long way to go on that and I think that it will be very difficult to legislate until we have more and certain information about how they work.
Within that are embedded the questions of what exactly adult content is and what relationship that adult content should have to age and age verification. As has been said, “adult content” is a euphemism and it conceals real difficulties in defining it. I notice that the Bill has a number of different ways of approaching that, and of course it does not go down the route of obscenity, for which we are glad. However, I still have doubts about how current bodies assess the norms that are too easily prayed in aid around matters concerning adult content or, indeed, obscenity itself. When you look at the ways in which the existing bodies arrive at their conclusions—counting individual uses of swear words or staring endlessly at screens waiting for a flash of naked skin or worse—you wonder whether we are getting sensible decisions out of that system. Of course, different cultures have different norms and different language surrounding the depiction of sexual activity, which simply have to be considered when we think about this. At the bottom of this, we have to be suspicious of those who advocate censorship in the name of protecting the vulnerable. History has many lessons in this regard.
This debate is specifically about children, and rightly so, but there are concerns here about other issues. Research shows that those who are more vulnerable in real life are also more vulnerable online—those with disabilities, those in low socioeconomic groups and families who have suffered trauma. It is also worth noting that young people make more unsafe decisions and contacts late at night when they are tired. All these things paint a picture that means we could identify a much larger group of people who are at risk than simply those specified in the Bill. Should we not pause and think about how best to deal with that wider group? Perhaps the Minister would like to pick up on that point when he comes to respond.
A number of noble Lords mentioned the need for schools to have more comprehensive policies on internet use. In particular, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, referred to cyberbullying. I have recent experience of that, in that close friends of ours have a child who has experienced this sort of thing. It is absolutely devastating not only for the individual child but for her friends, her friendship group and the school. Of course, schools deal mainly only with what happens in the school and they find it difficult to bring a joined-up approach to what happens outside, yet we should be looking for a holistic approach to this.
Clause 4 certainly opens up this issue, although in my judgment it may not be sufficient. I am particularly concerned about Clause 5. It is fine to say that the Secretary of State,
“must provide means of educating parents of children under the age of eighteen about online safety”,
but who, when and how much? Who is going to pick up the bill and is it going to be effective? These are all issues that will need to be dealt with before the Bill makes significant progress.
I am sounding slightly negative about the Bill but I do not mean to. I was struck by the words used by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, who was reflective on some of these issues. He wanted to see movement but was also concerned that a wider debate was needed here. The balance between liberty and censorship has not featured very much in what we have been talking about.
We are obviously well intentioned towards the Bill and would like to see progress in this area, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, this is really in the hands of the Government. Taking into account the normal progress of legislation, there will not be time for the Bill to get through, so we need to hear from the Minister where exactly he wants to take this, if indeed he wants to do so. However, if the Bill is to progress, I suspect that it needs more thinking and a bit of redrafting in certain areas to make it fit for purpose and to guard against unintended consequences.