Lord Smith of Leigh
Main Page: Lord Smith of Leigh (Labour - Life peer)Local Government Finance Bill
Lord Smith of Leigh Excerpts
Lord Smith of Leigh
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment. I remind colleagues that I am a serving leader of a council and it is therefore my job to introduce a council tax support scheme. We have sent out our consultation, which contains things I can hardly believe I am supporting. We have a gap of £4 million in the amount we can raise through the council tax adjustments. We are already facing £30 million of cuts in our budget, and if I was to put more cuts into the system it would impact only on the same people because it is the poor who rely on our services.
In introducing our scheme for council tax benefits, we tried to work on principles—it was sometimes difficult but we tried to do that—and clearly we wanted to use what we could of any technical changes. We wanted to protect vulnerable groups, but that is not possible in total, and we wanted to make sure that we did not undermine incentives to work. However, that is very difficult with this scheme. I have also set up a discretionary hardship fund because we know that, however we design the system, some people will slip through and I want to be able to do something about it.
Despite the protestations of the Government that they want to help people get back into work, the Bill is an attack on the working poor; it is an attack on people who take low-paid jobs—not because they want to take low-paid jobs but because often they are the only jobs available. If you have low skills or poor education attainment, if you live in areas where pay levels are low or work in industries where profitability is difficult, you are in a low-paid situation. I thought this House wanted to keep people in those jobs and support them.
With apologies to my noble friend Lord Beecham, I wonder sometimes whether the coalition, like Newcastle United, is being sponsored by Wonga.com. The impact of this and the other changes that are taking place is to drive the poor in our community towards payday lenders. It is a growth industry in our country and we ought to be ashamed that a legal lender can charge rates of 4,000% a year on an annualised basis when the bank rate is 0.5%. How can we justify that when it is the poorest who have to pay that amount of money? It is a tragic situation. This change to council tax benefit will force many hard-working, decent families who are trying to do the best for themselves by taking jobs and doing what they thought the Government wanted them to do into the hands of those payday lenders. There are, of course, other lenders in Wigan, Newcastle and Luton who are not legal and whose collection methods are somewhat different. Even so, people go to them.
In Wigan, the average increase in council tax benefit is £3 a week. To noble Lords that sum may represent a glass of champagne in a bar so it is not significant, but if you are among the poor in places like Wigan, it is. It can tip people who are able to survive financially over the edge, and poor families will be put in that position. I should remind noble Lords that the low paid are already suffering under the Government because of the impact of inflation. Since the coalition came to power, the rate of inflation has been 7.1% for the average person. However, food prices have risen by 8.5% and household costs including fuel by 11%, and now even more with what British Gas and the others are up to. When we look at household budgets, we can see that the poor spend disproportionately more on food and household items. The average percentage of income spent on food is 13.2%, but the poorest 10% spend 16% of their income on food, while the richest 10% spend under 10%. The average spend on household items is 19.1%, but for the poor it is 25%—and that on items which are going up by 11%. Again, that is a further squeeze on a low budget. The rich only spend under 10% on household items. It is clear that the working poor are already suffering, and we ought to be helping them more, not targeting them with this increase in council tax benefit.
From my perspective, as my noble friend said, we have already put our consultation out only to discover suddenly at this stage that the Government have found in their back pocket or behind the sofa £100 million that can be put into the system. That is cynical politics and it will not work, because I will make sure that the people who I represent know who is causing this problem and know whose fault it is. We are not going to let them get away with it.
Lord Tope
My Lords, the reference to cynical politics has finally brought me to my feet. Remarkably, we are now on the second to last day of your Lordships’ consideration of this Bill, but we are in fact having a Second Reading debate. I want to give us a bit of a reality check because those listening who have not been part of the proceedings of the Bill through Second Reading, the Committee stage and so on will have much sympathy with all that has been said. I certainly do.
The 10% reduction, which most of us recognise in reality is actually going to be more than 10%, is not part of this Bill. It was one of the deficit reduction measures announced some time ago. It certainly sets the context for the Bill, but it is not a provision of the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has said many times that she would prefer a national scheme and for council tax support to be part of universal credit. I said at Second Reading, “so would I”, because I believe that that is the sensible way forward. But Parliament has decided otherwise and it has passed the Welfare Reform Act. It may be that in years to come a future Government will change that, but it is not going to happen during the passage of this Bill. That is the reality check I am talking about. We have to deal with the situation as it is, not as we might wish it to be.
We all share the concerns that have been expressed by the speakers to this amendment. I would just say that, recognising where we are rather than where we wish to be, the next amendment we are going to debate provides a very much better solution to all problems that have been described by every speaker thus far. I look forward to the debate, and I particularly look forward to support for that amendment from all sides of the House.
Lord Smith of Leigh
Before the noble Baroness sits down, perhaps I can clarify what I said. I was using cumulative figures of inflation to show the impact on different items. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord True, and the Minister that the problem was that council tax benefit doubled under the previous Government, and, in a financial sense, it did. However, underlying those figures is the fact that the number of claimants did not rise; it fell between 1997 and 2002 and then began to rise, reflecting the changes in the economy, as one would expect. If we look again at the figures for the difference in council tax—if we smooth out the increase in council tax—there was a decrease in payment on council tax benefit, not an increase, so the problem is not council tax benefit, it is council tax.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate on the amendment. I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Smith for his interjection on some of the data.
As for procedure at Third Reading, I was not suggesting that we would necessarily consider bringing back this amendment at Third Reading. I was referring to some of our other amendments—on issues such as tapers and vulnerable people, for example—which are affected by a greater understanding of the transitional funding that has just been announced. From the briefing session that we had on Monday we very much took it that there would be some flexibility because of the timing of the announcement. If the noble Baroness is saying that that is not the position then we will have to take account of that as we proceed later today.
Lord Smith of Leigh
My Lords, I think I should make a contribution on this as well. I declare my interest as a vice-president of the LGA and, in view of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Best, about the discussion he had with the chairman, I should say that I am also the vice-chairman of SIGOMA.
As I said in the debate on the previous amendment, I am having to make some very practical decisions on this matter, and I still think that it ill behoves Members opposite to say that Members on this side are not interested in poverty issues, when they voted Not Content on the previous amendment. Putting that to one side, I found the contributions really interesting. It has been confession time. One noble Lord confessed to being the author of the poll tax and another to being the author of the council tax. Had we time, I am sure that we could debate those issues to a great extent.
However, I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, when he said that one issue about what is being proposed here is that local authorities are going to have the agonies of collection that we had under the poll tax. In fact, before coming down this morning, I spoke to the North West Legal Consortium, which is a group of local authority lawyers. I said I was coming down to your Lordships’ House to participate in this Bill and I assured them that while one outcome may well be that it creates more poverty, it will also create more work for lawyers.
We are getting round to the fact, as I said earlier, that this is actually the poll tax mark 2. We are now in a situation where we are going to take money from the poorest, and to collect it will be very expensive. Local authorities will have that dilemma of whether and how to collect very small sums, when the cost of collection will outweigh the amount of money they will get. But we will have to make those decisions.
I would not have thought that an adjustment in the single person discount would be something that I would be able to support, except in the most exceptional circumstances. I have to tell your Lordships that these are those most exceptional circumstances. This is not a panacea by any means. In Wigan, the shortfall in the council tax support scheme is about £4 million. About a third of households receive the single person discount, just under 50,000 properties, and they get the benefit of about £10.4 million. In my area, a band D property is regarded as something that is not a poor household, but it obviously depends on where you live. The vast majority are in bands A and B, which are poor properties. If I was to try to raise the £4 million simply out of the single person discount, I would be reducing the single person discount by a very significant amount, which would be far more than I could do. So it is not a panacea to the problems that authorities like my own face.
However, and this is probably where I part company with some on my own side, we have already got our hands tied behind our backs because we cannot do anything about pensioner discounts, and we are now having them further tied behind our backs in the sense that we are not allowed to look at flexibilities in other areas. I am having to make really tough decisions about the working poor. Some of the decisions that I might make, such as reducing the single person discount, would not have as great an impact on the poor people of the borough and I would like the flexibility to do so.
As the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, there is an interesting contradiction here, where, on the one hand, the Government want to support a single person discount, which allows people to be rattling around in properties that are perhaps too big for their actual needs but, on the other hand, we have agreed to a system where if you are on housing benefit you have to pay bedroom tax. If you want the privilege of that, you actually pay more for living in a property that is deemed too big for you, and here we are giving people money to support them doing that. That seems to be a lack of coherence in policy.
We should trust local authorities. If we believe in localism, local authorities should be trusted to implement the scheme in a way that best meets the needs of all the people in their area. I would not want to reduce the single person discount by a significant amount, but it would help me make more palatable some of the cuts that I shall have to make in council tax benefit.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Best, an authoritative case. As ever, he approaches the issue from the point of view of protecting the poorest in our society. I guess that that makes my task slightly more difficult than it otherwise would have been, because, to be clear, we are not convinced that the proposition is the best solution to the problem that local authorities face. I can understand—my noble friend Lord Smith has just emphasised the point—that local authorities, desperate for some source of funding, could see it as a ready means of getting that, but, as my noble friend Lady Sherlock and the noble Lord, Lord True, said, to change the structure of a tax system just for that reason without a broader approach and analysis is not the right thing to do.
We are concerned that the wording of the amendment does not exclude pensioners. It gives local authorities the discretion to exclude pensioners but does not of itself exclude them. It does not exclude a reduction in the single person discount which is greater than 5%; it would be up to local authorities to do that.
We broadly accept, on the basis of numbers that we have seen and the LGA analysis in particular, which picks up some of the IFS data, that the proposition would in comparison to what is in the Bill produce a generally better redistribution outcome, particularly for poor people. However, if you look at that outcome in the context of the debate that we have just had and the adverse decision that we now face, you see that it is not so favourable. I have not seen from the data that have come across my desk how the proposition works at individual authority level. I concede that, when you look at things in aggregate, you have a less regressive, or perhaps a more positive, redistribution, but what is the impact down at individual authority level? If an authority has lots of second homes and is very rich, it is more likely than a poorer authority to be in a position where it does not have to change the single person discount. In terms of redistribution, that is going in the wrong direction. I accept that the proposition would result in a redistribution that is better than is in the Bill, but it is not as good as we can get and where we should leave it.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, charged that we want poor people to suffer. If I may say so, that is a disgraceful thing to say. If he were to look at the record of this side of the Chamber, the propositions that we have advanced, what we have voted for and what we have voted against, I hope that he would see that that is not true. We have just tried to stand up for poor people more positively and more strongly than the noble Lord is seeking to do now. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that it was quite inexplicable that we could not put our name to the amendment and engage in the wording. We find it quite inexplicable that the Lib Dems, who have in many ways a proud tradition of liberal thinking and action, should allow the Government to put in place a system that leads to the problem that we are trying to ameliorate with the amendment. That is the fundamental problem that we face. As the noble Lord said, we know that the Government are not going to move on the single person discount. We seemingly know that the Government are not going to move on the 10% cut, so where do we go? This amendment seeks one route to break that logjam; we have tried another which would have a better outcome. That is why we have some concerns with this approach. I accept the strong intent behind it and I accept that there are circumstances where it could lead to a better outcome because the pain is being spread over more people, but that pain would still be spread to some who are fairly low down the income scale, which is not the right thing to do.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, about collection issues, as I think does pretty much every noble Lord who has addressed this issue. That will be a real problem with the system that we face. Dealing with the single person discount might change that a bit at the margins, but it, and certainly the transitional funding, do not change the problem fundamentally—arguably, they make it worse, because authorities are encouraged to reduce council tax benefit by 8.5% rather than 20% or 30%. They therefore have a smaller sum to collect with at least the same, and arguably greater, costs because of the problems with collection. That is the real issue which I hope will cause the Government to wake up and say that we should deal with this differently.
It is a pity that we did not pursue the issue of a report on the tax base, a theme returned to by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and how it would operate in practice, because it would have served us well in due course. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about child poverty. I simply make the point again: if the noble Lord and his colleagues are seriously concerned about child poverty in our country, they will know that there have been plenty of opportunities during the past couple of years for them to stand up and address that issue in a far more positive way than just supporting this amendment would do. The Lib Dems need to think strategically about where they are going on this rather than pick at something which I accept is very well intentioned and would ameliorate the problem to a certain extent but which in the wider scheme of things is just a sticking plaster on the problem when we need to address the problem itself. We cannot alone cause the Government to change their mind. We and the Lib Dems, with help from Cross- Benchers, arguably could, so that ball is in the noble Lord’s court.
I always hesitate to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Best, because my colleagues and I have been shoulder to shoulder with him on many important issues where we have challenged and overturned the Government’s wishes even if they have subsequently been pushed back to us. I know that he raises this issue with the best intent, but there are some technical problems, if none other, with his approach which mean that this amendment cannot be supported. It is with some regret that I say that.