Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing Bill

Lord Rosser Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose and content of the Bill, which we support, although that does not mean that we will have no issues to pursue during the further stages of the Bill. I am not quite sure whether the numerical shortage of Back-Bench speakers is despite or because of who the Front-Bench speakers are.

In a situation where those booking holidays do so many weeks or even months in advance, and often do so by paying up front in a situation where services are frequently provided by third parties, to ensure up-to-date and effective appropriate protection for airline passengers in the event of the bankruptcy of their travel company is an objective with which I am sure all agree.

Indeed, in the light of the problems there have been at times this year at some of our airports as a result of difficulties over, for example, IT systems and the enormous adverse impact that that can have on passengers, one is tempted to feel that maybe the protection offered by statute is not as all-embracing as it might be. The consumer, we are led to believe, is king. I am not sure that air travellers always feel that that is the case.

In his letter to Members of this House in July, the Minister states that this Bill is intended to modernise the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing consumer protection scheme for package holidays that include a flight. The ATOL scheme was introduced in the 1970s for UK holidaymakers flying overseas and, as the Minister said, was most recently updated in 2012. The ATOL scheme is also a crucial means by which UK businesses can meet their obligations to have insolvency protection under EU directives.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, the content of this Bill originally formed part of the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill, which met a sticky end as a result of the Prime Minister’s sudden desire to hold a snap election. Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether, and when, all the other parts of the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill are likely to reappear and whether the impact of drones and laser beams on the safety of aircraft will also then be addressed.

ATOL is a statutory financial protection scheme managed by the Civil Aviation Authority on behalf of the Government and at present applies only to flights with accommodation sold in the United Kingdom. Businesses selling air holiday packages, or flight-only sales by third parties, in the UK are required by law to hold an ATOL licence. Should an ATOL-licensed firm become insolvent, the Civil Aviation Authority can refund protected customers or, if they are already on holiday, ensure that they can get back home. As has already been said, the scheme is funded by contributions made by travel companies into the Air Travel Trust Fund at the rate of £2.50 for each person they book on a holiday. It has been estimated that the ATOL scheme protects over 20 million holidaymakers each year.

As we know, in November 2015 the European Union adopted a revised directive on package travel and linked travel arrangements, and member states—which, contrary to the belief of some, still include us—have until 1 January 2018 to implement the directive, which will apply from 1 July 2018. The Government supported the updating of the EU package travel directive as it was consistent with our own ATOL protections and should provide a consistent approach to protection, including in respect of holidays booked online.

The revised directive takes account of the major changes that have occurred over the last 20 years or so in the way that holidays are bought and sold with the growth of the internet and mobile phone technology. In particular, the internet has enabled people to mix and match the components of their holiday in a way that often falls outside the scope of ATOL and the current EU directive. One survey has estimated that about 75% of UK customers now book their holidays over the internet. This has led to a fall in ATOL sales as a share of all leisure flights from over 90% in 1998 to, I believe, around 50% more recently.

One aim of the 2015 EU directive is to bring greater clarity on what constitutes a package holiday, with a further objective being to harmonise protection within the EU. The first clause of the Bill updates ATOL to ensure that it is harmonised with the recent EU directive. Many of the changes will be covered in regulations, but a wider range of operators, including more dynamic package providers which offer a greater choice of destinations, activities and providers and enable people to tailor bespoke packages for themselves, will probably be covered under the changes, bringing protection to many more UK holidaymakers not covered under the existing ATOL provisions.

In addition, the requirement for travel companies to be in line with standards at “place of establishment” instead of at “place of sale” will mean that UK companies can sell more easily across Europe by simply adhering to the widely respected ATOL arrangements and requirements. Existing ATOL legislation applies only when the first leg of a relevant flight booking departs from a UK airport. However, will the Minister say whether this change will also mean that EU-based companies selling in the UK will have to adhere only to an ATOL-equivalent protection laid down in the member state where the business is based, which could have processes and timescales for recompense distinctly different from what many UK consumers would expect under our ATOL arrangements? Some 500,000 passengers could be affected.

The second clause relates to the Air Travel Trust, the legal vehicle used to hold the money to refund consumers under ATOL, giving the Secretary of State power to define separate trust arrangements to reflect different market models. This change is not directly relevant to the EU regulation addressed in the first clause, but is a dormant power that would enable the Government to make wholesale change to the structure and applicability of the ATOL brand, subject only to the affirmative resolution. Will the Minister say what consultation—and with whom—will take place prior to the regulations under this clause being laid by the Secretary of State, and will a full impact assessment be undertaken? What separate trust arrangements to reflect different market models are the Government contemplating under Clause 2, and why, and will they provide more, less or the same protection as is provided to consumers under the present trust arrangements?

The third clause extends the scope of the powers under which the Civil Aviation Authority is currently able to request information. Specifically, the clause would ensure that the information power would apply to any airlines established in the UK selling relevant holidays in the EEA that are not covered by the Civil Aviation Act 1982.

The last clause, Clause 4, provides for commencement of the provisions of the Bill, with Clause 3 coming into force on whatever day or days the Secretary of State decides by regulations, and the other provisions coming into force on the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent. The comment has already been made that the travel industry is one that has to plan, and to sell holidays, up to 18 months or more ahead. Much of the detail implementing the Bill will be done through secondary legislation, the content of which at the moment is unclear. What discussions—and with whom—have taken place and are taking place on the detail of the secondary legislation and when is it expected that secondary legislation will appear, assuming that this Bill becomes an Act?

Further, what guarantees can the Government provide that departure from the EU will not result in any of the existing rights and protections for passengers provided for in EU law, including those provided for in this Bill, being weakened or diminished? Finally, what guarantees can the Government offer the airline industry on the operating environment situation following our withdrawal from the EU, bearing in mind that aviation does not even have World Trade Organization rules to fall back on?

We support the aims and objectives of the Bill, but there are a number of points on which more detail is needed from the Government. The purpose of the Bill will be somewhat diminished if our aviation industry is in trouble following withdrawal from the European Union.

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the small number of noble Lords who contributed to the debate this afternoon. I hope, like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that it is because of the quality of the Front-Bench contributions that other noble Lords decided not to contribute, but I suspect it probably has more to do with being the first day back after the Recess. Nevertheless, it is about the quality rather than the quantity of the contributions. It has been a good, brief debate.

The travel market has moved on significantly in the past decade, with changes to the way holidays are offered and sold. The market has diversified with the growth of the internet and smart technologies, as many Members have pointed out. Consumers now have a great many options at their fingertips to buy holidays and to put together their own packages. As the methods for selling holidays modernise, we must also update and modernise the schemes and laws that protect them. As I said in my opening remarks, this Bill is a vehicle by which the UK will implement the EU package travel directive. It will ensure that informally booked holidays will have protection similar to that for traditional package holidays, regardless of whether they are booked on the high street or online. This Bill complements the steps we took to update the ATOL scheme in 2012 and is required to ensure that consumer protection can keep pace with the changing travel market.

While it is fair to say that the Bill may not be the largest in terms of clauses, not many Bills can bring peace of mind to so many people. The scheme protects more than 20 million people each year by regulating entry into the market and acting as a fund to compensate consumers who might be caught up in a failure. It has provided robust consumer protection for more than 40 years and is held in high esteem by the travel industry and consumers alike. It has been able to do so by evolving over time and adapting to changes in the travel market. The Bill will help to align our regulatory framework with the changes coming in across the EU in 2018. The combined effect of the clauses will help to cut red tape, allowing UK-established companies to sell holidays more easily throughout Europe. They will be able to protect more holidays through the ATOL scheme, removing the need to comply with different schemes in each member state.

I shall move on to some of the question that have been asked. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised the point about the future of consumer protection once the UK leaves the EU. The UK has always led the way in protecting holidaymakers. We remain committed to consumer protection and will continue to do so after Brexit. For example, we established the ATOL scheme two decades before the original package travel directive was agreed across Europe. ATOL is of course enshrined in UK legislation and will remain on the statute book until such time as these Houses decide otherwise, regardless of what happens with Brexit. We also made improvements to the scheme in 2012 which are now being echoed in the new package travel directive that was passed by the EU in 2015. So I think that I can claim some authority here when I say that we have a track record over many years of being at the forefront of consumer protection in this field and that we hope to remain so.

The Bill will extend the Civil Aviation Authority’s information powers so that it is more able to regulate the scheme and cross-border activity. It will update the ATOL powers so that they align with the scope of the directive and will provide more flexibility to set up new trust arrangements and so on to respond more effectively to an increasingly diverse pool of risks. The scheme now needs to manage a greater variety of risks and business models, and the update the Bill will make to ATOL will mean that consumer protection can extend to a broader range of holidays. This will mean that protection is provided for traditional and online package holidays as well as for the looser combinations of travel which had previously been out of scope. Of course, we must be mindful that the regulatory landscape will need to be able to adapt to future changes in our relationship with the EU, but we will also retain flexibility in the ATOL regulations to adapt to future changes in our relationship, thus ensuring that we continue to have strong consumer protections in place as we leave the European Union. These measures will ensure that the scheme remains fit for today’s world, a world in which digital technologies are offering increasing opportunities for consumers to select the way they purchase a holiday.

Moving on to some of the other questions that were asked, my noble friend Lord Flight reflected on his Burma experience. I hope that he has now recovered from his back operation and his problems with insurance. It is important to say that the ATOL scheme is not designed to replace holiday insurance and we do not want to give consumers the impression that it should or might do so. People should still take out holiday insurance, ideally before they book their holiday, which for its relatively modest cost provides the considerable protections they will need above and beyond the ATOL scheme. Arrangements for flight-only and for airlines are regulated separately, and I am sorry that my noble friend was not able to take advantage of them with his Burma experiences. I am not sure that there are any package holidays to Burma that would be covered by the ATOL regulations.

In response to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, no distraction is intended from any other worthy causes. She got her points in about Brexit anyway, so maybe she could cut and paste them and repeat them in the Brexit debate later this afternoon and save everyone the trouble of listening to them again, worthy though they were. She also asked about drones and lasers, a point also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I announced just before the start of the summer vacation the measures we intend to take on drones. We are currently working on further measures to deal with the scourge of laser pens. I cannot be more specific on a timescale at the moment, but I assure the noble Lord that as soon as we can we can provide precise timings I will do so, but we recognise the threat and have published measures on what we intend to do on drones. We will act as soon as is possible.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, also said she thought there was a degree of irrelevancy about the Bill. I am afraid I do not agree. We need to have protection measures in place. As I said, it will exist long after we leave the EU. We were 20 years in advance of the EU package travel directive and our protections will remain in place afterwards.

The noble Baroness raised so-called regulatory shopping. This is a concern, but we have seen no evidence of it so far. Indeed, the package travel directive in many respects implements what we already have in the UK, so it will make it less likely that companies can move to a lower-regulation environment in the rest of the EU. It will raise guarantee standards in countries such as Spain effectively to what we already have in the United Kingdom, so it will prevent the problems associated with Lowcost Holidays that I mentioned earlier.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the new trust arrangements. They are right to do so. I hope I will be able to reassure them. We have no plans to establish any other trust schemes beyond what we already have. Indeed, in response to the noble Baroness’s question, we have £175 million in the ATOL scheme, but there have been periods when it has been in deficit. I think I am right in saying that up until 2011 the scheme was in deficit and the Government needed to provide a guarantee for a loan to be taken out to refund failures at that time. Since then, we have had proportionately fewer failures and proportionately more people paying in, so the fund is now in considerable surplus.

We have no plans to change the contribution, but we propose to give ourselves the power to respond innovatively to changes in the market. As I said, we have no plans to do so but it is possible and we would not want to exclude the ability to establish new trust fund arrangements if new and innovative models were to be produced. If we did, we would consult extensively with the scheme providers in the CAA, and with package tour operators, various internet firms, et cetera. Of course, such arrangements would be subject to affirmative resolutions in both Houses.

[Lord Rosser]

To pursue the point on the purpose of Clause 2, the Minister has said the Government have no plans at present, but then goes on to refer to possible changes in the future. Will he give some examples of the changes that might take place that would necessitate using the powers under Clause 2?

[Lord Callanan]

I suppose the short answer to that question is no. If I knew what innovative solutions and changes might come up, we would allow for them now. For example, if a particularly new and what we would consider riskier form of package could be developed, we would maybe want to set up a larger contribution protection than the £2.50 that applies to other schemes. As I said, we will consult extensively with all providers and with the CAA, and the arrangements will be subject to the affirmative resolutions of this House. As I said, these models have not been developed yet, so we do not know what they might be, but we think it prudent to allow for the possibility that they may be developed in the future, even though we have no plans to do so at the moment.

I believe I have responded to all the questions I was asked—somebody will no doubt shout if I have not.

[Lord Rosser]

The Minister may feel he has answered this already, in which case he will obviously say so, but I asked about the secondary legislation, what consultations have already taken place and with whom, and what consultations are currently taking place. I also asked about the production of an impact assessment, because the concern is that there may not be proper consultation or an impact assessment, and we shall have just an affirmative resolution for what are, or could be, quite extensive powers and changes.

[Lord Callanan]

As I said, we can give an undertaking to consult extensively if we propose to do this in the future. I will write to the noble Lord with details of any consultations that have already been carried out; I hope he will consider that an adequate response. I think I have responded to the points that others put to me and I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.

Roads: Congestion

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. Again, we are investing enormously in expanding the bus network. Many local authorities are dedicating sections of the highway to bus-only networks, funded by grants from the Department for Transport. The bus network is improving massively in many of our great cities and rural areas, and we should be proud of that.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has set out how much money is being spent, but in the light of this Question, clearly, it is not having much of an impact. The 2010-15 Government set up a fund for sorting out pinch-points in the road network, and this Question would suggest that it was not particularly successful. Can the Minister say how much money from that fund was spent, how many projects it covered and how many were put forward which were not supported? Has the fund continued, or was it only for a limited time-span? If the latter, why was it brought to an end, rather than continuing with it?

Transport: Remote Island Communities in England

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate, which, although on the subject of the transport needs of remote island communities in England as a whole, has centred mainly on the position of the Isles of Scilly, a favourite holiday location of a former Labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, who indeed is buried on St Mary’s. I have also visited Holy Island, in the right reverend Prelate’s diocese—although I am afraid I visited by car—and I regard Northumberland as among the most scenic and attractive counties in England, one that seems to remain largely undiscovered by most people south of the Wash.

My indefatigable noble friend Lord Berkeley has raised his concerns about the transport links between the Isles of Scilly and the mainland on a number of occasions in this House. One has always sensed a deep frustration on his part at some of the replies he has received, and the very helpful briefing prepared by our Library sets out some of those previous exchanges. My noble friend has set out in some detail the concerns over the present transport links in relation to the needs of the Isles of Scilly in his powerful speech that opened the debate.

As my noble friend said, the present transport links from the Isles of Scilly to the mainland are provided by a 40 year-old ship that runs from Penzance to St Mary’s six days a week from mid-March to late October. There is a separate freight vessel that operates two or three times a week and can take a handful of passengers, and there are flights from St Mary’s to and from Land’s End and Newquay all year round—again for six days a week, I think—and to Exeter in the summer only. As I understand it, those services are all operated by the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company. A new helicopter service has been proposed to serve the Isles of Scilly from Penzance, but it is both literally and metaphorically yet to get off the ground following a judicial review challenge by the steamship group.

The existing services to the Isles of Scilly are not always as reliable as they might be, as my noble friend and other noble Lords have said. On my one visit to the Scilly Isles three or so years ago, our flight from Exeter was cancelled due to fog. We were driven by taxi from Exeter to Penzance, where we stayed in a hotel overnight before being driven out to Land’s End Airport the following morning for a flight to the Isles of Scilly. It was a somewhat longer journey overall than we had expected, and this was not in the middle of winter. I have to say I spent most of my time on the flight from Land’s End to Saint Mary’s wondering what the consequences would be if the one person who appeared to be flying the plane had a sudden heart attack. However, the flight back to Exeter at the end of our holiday ran as scheduled and with two people at the controls.

On previous occasions when my noble friend Lord Berkeley has raised this issue, and again today, he has drawn attention, as have other noble Lords, to the difference between the support—or rather the lack of it—for transport links to the Isles of Scilly and that given by the Scottish Government to transport links to Islay, which has a population comparable to that of the Isles of Scilly and is a not dissimilar distance from the mainland. The fares to Islay on the ferry are much lower and the ferry runs much more frequently, including throughout the year. When the Government were asked in 2012 by my noble friend why the Isles of Scilly cannot be treated in a similar way transport-wise to Islay, the reply was:

“As regards the comparison with the Scottish situation, it is difficult to make valid direct comparisons when the circumstances vary and the service is rather more complicated”.—[Official Report, 25/06/12; col 1.]


That seems less like an answer to the question that my noble friend asked and more like an attempt to avoid answering it. If the Minister is going to give a similar response today, perhaps he could explain what the circumstances are that make it difficult to make a valid direct comparison, and in what way the service is so much more complicated that it makes such a comparison with Islay and the Scilly Isles difficult.

The Government gave a similar answer when the matter of the contrast with Scotland was raised again in October 2012 by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. They said that,

“the situation in Scotland is different because it involves much more complicated and wide-ranging services that cannot be operated on a commercial basis. At the moment, the service to the Isles of Scilly is operated on a commercial basis”.

When challenged again, the Government said that,

“we could make a public service obligation if the market failed. The market has not yet failed. In addition, there would have to be a competitive bidding process. We do not want to interfere at this point because we want to see whether there will be a commercial solution to the problem”.—[Official Report, 24/10/12; cols. 202-03.]

That is an interesting answer. Note from it that for the Government in 2012 providing an all-year-round ferry service to the Isles of Scilly, with lower fares and charges, was regarded as “interference”. I am not sure that is how the residents of the Isles of Scilly would see it, nor those considering whether they can afford the cost of travelling to the Scilly Isles for a holiday.

With what the Government presumably see as “interference”, the service to Islay has much lower fares and greater frequency and runs throughout the year. The market has failed to deliver that to the Isles of Scilly. This issue affects not just passenger fares, whether by ship or by air, but, as has been said, freight costs for those seeking to run businesses and provide employment on the Isles of Scilly. The ferry service to the Isles of Scilly cannot be operated on a commercial basis that delivers a higher frequency all year round or at fare levels comparable to the Islay service. Indeed, even when the scheduled ferry service runs between March and November, I believe it is not possible—although the situation may now have changed—to do a day return trip from the Scilly Isles to the mainland on the regular scheduled ferry service.

In their response on 24 October 2012 that I repeated a few moments ago, the Government said that,

“we want to see whether there will be a commercial solution to the problem”.—[Official Report, 24/10/12; col. 203.]

What do the Government regard as the “problem” to which they referred in that response and what would a “commercial solution”, to which they also referred in that response, have to deliver to resolve that problem?

There is the prospect of a helicopter service being reopened between the Isles of Scilly and Penzance. While planning permission has been granted for a new heliport at Penzance, there is, as has been said, apparently an outstanding judicial challenge to the grant of planning permission from the company that operates the existing air and ferry services to and from the mainland. The chair of that company has apparently said:

“Our primary concern relates to the serious socio-economic consequences of creating a new heliport and the effect the proposal will have on the long term sustainability of the wider transport network and future investment in it, including a replacement for the”,


present vessel operating the ferry service. Obviously I cannot comment on the validity or otherwise of that concern, but it seems to say that there is not room for both the existing operator services and a new helicopter service on the route from Penzance. If that is the case, would it not explain why the fares are so high and the level of service so inadequate? Does it not suggest that insisting that the links between the Isles of Scilly and the mainland must be run on a commercial basis means in reality a virtual monopoly for whichever operator is running the services?

As has been said, the Scottish Government have introduced a road-equivalent tariff for lifeline ferry services as the basis for single fares. There have been reports in local media that this has resulted in significant increases in tourism due to the reduction in ferry fares under the scheme. Tourism accounts for 75% to 80% of the local economy on the Isles of Scilly, so presumably better, more reliable, all-year-round transport links at fares more akin to those applicable on ferry and air services to comparable islands in Scotland could be of considerable benefit to the main revenue-earning industry for the Isles of Scilly. In that context, we are talking about one of the poorest areas in both the UK and the EU when referring to the Isles of Scilly and the wider Cornwall area.

It may be that in their response, the Government will be able to provide figures indicating a rather different picture from that painted so far in this debate. They may be able to show that tourism in the Isles of Scilly is booming. They may be able to show that the present transport links do not act as a deterrent to tourists considering whether to visit the Isles of Scilly. They may be able to show that businesses and residents on the Isles of Scilly are not hampered by high freight charges or the level of passenger fares by air or sea. They may be able to show that the benefits to the economy of the Isles of Scilly of improved transport links at lower fares and charges would be a lot less than any additional costs of securing those improved links at lower fares and charges. They may be able to show that the gross disposable income per head and gross value added figures for the Isles of Scilly paint a picture of steadily increasing prosperity with the existing level of transport links. Alternatively, they may not be able to show any of those things.

I hope that the Government will respond positively to the points and concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I would not want to be left—I say this tongue in cheek—wondering whether the Government’s seeming lack of enthusiasm for addressing the transport needs of the Isles of Scilly was being influenced by the fact that a former Labour Prime Minister loved the Isles of Scilly and has them as his final resting place.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for securing this debate on the transport needs of remote island communities in England. I know that he has for many years taken a keen interest in the future of island connectivity—in particular, to his beloved Isles of Scilly. In the presence of so many other admirers of the Isles of Scilly, at this point I should say in confession, in front of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, that I have never been to the Isles of Scilly but I have been many times to Lindisfarne, the holy island in the north-east but, given the glowing descriptions from many noble Lords, I look forward to the opportunity to visit the Scilly Islands.

Most of the speakers in the debate have concentrated on the Isles of Scilly, except for the right reverend Prelate, who waxed lyrical about the wonderful Holy Island, in Northumberland, which, as I said, I have visited many times. There is indeed a road connection for part of the year, and it is a source of amazement to me—as it will be to other Members from the north-east—that every year there are tales of people’s cars floating off the causeway. I assure your Lordships that it is not possible for the council to put any bigger signs indicating the required crossing times and the consequences if you do not adhere to them. The most amazing thing is that normally, they are not people who speak a foreign language and do not understand English, but people from the local area or other communities in the United Kingdom, who just wilfully ignore the signs and see their car floating away in the distance as the tide comes in. They normally take to the rescue shelter halfway across. There is no legislation against stupidity, I fear.

I take note of the right reverend Prelate’s suggestion of a park-and-ride scheme. I am sure that she will understand that is a matter for the local authorities to determine. I am sure that under its new leadership, Northumberland County Council will look closely at her suggestion. She is fortunate to represent what is in my biased opinion one of the nicest dioceses in the country.

As an island nation, the movement of goods and people by air and sea is vital to the economic well-being of this country—95% of our trade by volume either arrives or departs by sea—but it is equally vital on a smaller scale for internal traffic within our smaller island communities. Indeed, that is the subject at hand. With three operators and around 9 million passenger crossings each year, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, observed, I am not so sure that the Isle of Wight falls into this category. I read with interest the briefing produced by the House Library, which concentrated to a remarkable extent on the Isle of Wight, which no one could argue is a remote island community. However, it shares with other islands the basic fact that it costs more—consumes more resources—per passenger mile to move people by ferry or by air than by road.

The Isles of Scilly are of course by far the most obvious example of our subject for debate today, and most Members have concentrated on them. Perhaps it will help the House if I briefly recap the background to the Isles of Scilly’s services by sea and by air, to build on the excellent introduction provided by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley.

Passenger and freight ferry services from the mainland to the Isles of Scilly have always been provided commercially without operating subsidy—under Conservative and Labour Governments, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will be aware.

The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, referred to the passenger ship RMV “Scillonian”, as did several noble Lords. It is now 40 years old, although it underwent a substantial refit in 2012. I have heard the various criticisms, but it is also fair to say that it is duly certificated, registered as seaworthy and entirely fit and appropriate for the services which it provides. If it was not, it would not be allowed to provide them.

In recent years the local partners—led by Cornwall Council—known as the Route Partnership put together a funding bid for a new purpose-built passenger and freight vessel to replace the two current vessels, and for significant harbour improvements at Penzance and St Mary’s. The new vessel was to be owned by Cornwall Council and chartered to an operator by competitive tender. The rationale for that proposed arrangement was that the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company could not afford to replace the current passenger vessel when it reached the end of its useful life, and neither could any other operator provide a financially viable service.

The Department for Transport then invited bids for smaller-scale harbour improvements, but declared that as long as passenger services remained in commercial operation, it did not believe that there was a case for an ongoing subsidy. I am sorry to say that that, in essence, remains the Government’s position now.

In the meantime, the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company has also undertaken to replace its year-round cargo ferry, the “Gry Maritha”, having acquired a significantly larger vessel, currently named “Mali Rose”, which could also carry up to six passengers in the winter months, at the master’s discretion. This vessel, I understand, requires substantial refurbishment before it can replace the “Gry Maritha”.

The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company has said that it intends to replace the current passenger vessel, the RMV “Scillonian III”, probably with a new build vessel, but that it believes that the ship can continue operating beyond 2020 if necessary. We await developments on that front, but the vessel appears capable of meeting demand during its months of operation.

Although the Government do not believe that there is a case for an ongoing subsidy, we remain committed to ensuring that services to remote island communities continue. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, referred to subsidies for freight services. The Government have invested over £6 million towards the £11 million project to improve the quays at St Mary’s, dredge Penzance Harbour and undertake land access improvements to improve the vital sea connection between the Isles of Scilly and the mainland for passengers and freight by opening up both harbours to a wider range of vessels in future. Building on the development work initially undertaken by the Council of the Isles of Scilly and Penzance Town Council, Cornwall Council undertook to act as the lead delivery authority and the works were completed in June 2016.

Scheduled commercial flights to the Isles of Scilly commenced as long ago as 1937. Today, regular flights operate to St Mary’s Airport from Land’s End and Newquay airports, and, seasonally, Exeter Airport. The runway at St Mary’s has recently been resurfaced and Land’s End Airport now has its first tarmac runway. Flights are operated commercially—again by the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company under the Skybus brand—and, like ferry services, have continued to operate free from subsidy. The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company has also invested in additional aircraft and expanded its service following the discontinuation in October 2012 of the British International Helicopters’ Penzance to St Mary’s helicopter service. According to the steamship company, passenger traffic by sea has increased in recent years, from just under 105,000 in 2014 to just under 116,000 in 2016. Air passengers have also increased from just under 91,000 to 95,000 in the same period, although this remains below the 155,000 passengers that were transported in 2011, which was the last full year of the helicopter service.

Transport to remote island communities is a free market and other operators are able to enter that market if they wish. In fact, I am aware of the current proposals—as noble Lords have mentioned—to recommence helicopter services to both St Mary’s and Tresco through the construction of a replacement heliport at Penzance. I understand that planning consent was approved by Cornwall Council in March 2017. However, noble Lords will understand that, because the proceedings are subject to judicial review, I am unable to comment further on that service.

The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley, Lord Cameron and Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to the issue potentially being referred to the Competition and Markets Authority—I think the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also mentioned this. Let me set out the position. The relevant legislation is Chapter 2 of the Competition Act 1998, on abuse of a dominant position, and Chapter 3, which covers investigation and enforcement. The CMA has wide discretion to construe a relevant market, which could include more than one transport mode and could extend to a market as modest in scale as the Scilly service—much smaller indeed than the Isle of Wight market, which was previously examined by the CMA’s predecessor, the OFT, and the Competition Commission. However, the CMA also operates formal prioritisation principles, which include the size of the market and the impact of the case. Depending on other workload, it may decide that the complaint about the Scilly services does not have sufficient priority to justify the resources required to investigate a case of this sort. It is a matter for the CMA.

A number of Members raised the issue of the Scottish islands and made comparisons with the services there. The Scottish Government, through Transport Scotland, provide financial assistance to reduce the cost of ferry travel on routes that are considered lifelines for remote island communities, and support a number of air routes to the islands through public service obligations. The Scottish Government are, of course, answerable to Scottish taxpayers for their own funding priorities, but I highlight that it is very difficult to compare the needs and services of groups of islands around the UK, and that the situation in Scotland is very different because the services mostly cannot be operated on a commercial basis. While there is no specific legal impediment in relation to public service obligations for remote island communities in England, at the moment the services to the Isles of Scilly are operated on a commercial basis. If the situation changes in this respect, then of course the matter could be reviewed.

The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Rosser, also raised the issue of the abuse of a monopoly—the same company providing both air and sea connections. We do not believe that this, in itself, is sufficient evidence to show abuse; despite the modest capacity of the terminals, it remains open to other providers to provide ferry and/or air services to the Scillies. I would be delighted if the market came to support more than one operator; however, that is not yet happening from either Penzance or elsewhere. The fact that it is not suggests that there is not some huge super-profit being exploited, into which a competitor could easily make inroads. The growth in passenger traffic at least suggests that fares are not prohibitive.

I will answer some of the other questions that noble Lords have raised. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—I think—asked about the quality and reliability of the air service. I totally appreciate the annoyance and distress caused to passengers when such events occur, but this is a matter for the interested parties, including the relevant local councils and users, to take up with the operator of the commercial services. Of course, it is for the pilot in command to decide whether to operate a flight in adverse weather conditions. The noble Lord also asked why cheaper air or ferry services cannot be offered for permanent residents. I understand that discounts are already available for permanent residents; further discounts would, again, be a matter for the interested parties to consider, including the operators, users and local councils. So long as EU treaty rules apply, in the first instance it would be for them to produce a draft notification justifying the preferential terms as aid of a social character in a remote region.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, raised the issue of the Scottish islands—I think I have responded already to that question—and asked about an air discount scheme. The air discount scheme for flights within Scotland is of course a matter for the Scottish Government. The scheme is not applicable to air routes in Scotland supported by public service obligations. Any exemption applied for in respect of air routes to the Isles of Scilly would have to be eligible for this type of aid under European Union state aid guidelines.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised the issue of the current train franchise and sleeper service from London. The current Great Western franchise is due to be replaced by April 2020 and officials have begun engaging with interested parties to identify potential priorities for the route franchise. I will ensure that the noble Lord’s points about the sleeper service are considered as part of the franchise replacement process. In addition, train services to Penzance are being substantially upgraded. A new £360 million fleet of bi-mode intercity express trains will replace the older high-speed trains on the London route, bringing journey time savings. Local services to Plymouth are being upgraded to two trains an hour, enabled by Network Rail’s re-signalling work. We particularly welcome the substantial contributions being made by Cornwall Council and the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly local enterprise partnership to the modernisation of the Night Riviera sleeper trains and improvements to stations in Cornwall and London for sleeper passengers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, made a very good point about the provision of emergency medical evacuations. Where commercial transport is not suitable or available, there are arrangements in place to evacuate patients who require emergency treatment using either Cornwall Air Ambulance or search and rescue services, both of which are based at Cornwall Airport Newquay.

The term “lifeline” is often used to describe vital transport connections between mainland and island communities. Although this term carries no formal or legal status, the Government recognise the importance of passenger and freight services to remote island communities in England, and that is why we remain committed to ensuring that these continue. My officials have met delegations on a number of occasions to discuss transportation to and from island communities such as the Isles of Scilly, and I assure noble Lords who have spoken in the debate that they remain available to do so in the future.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, is it the Government’s view that the present air and sea services to the Isles of Scilly, including the current fares and charges, are having a dampening effect on the economy of the Isles of Scilly?

[Lord Callanan]

As I said earlier, passenger traffic is increasing. The services continue to be operated on a commercial basis. I accept the points noble Lords have made about the desirability of increased connections—of course, everybody would like increased connections and better services to their communities—but there is no evidence of a detrimental effect on the community.

Space Industry Bill [HL]

Lord Rosser Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 12th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, this Bill is clearly regarded, I hope correctly, as not potentially controversial; hence it is starting its passage through Parliament in your Lordships’ House. The Bill appears to have had a somewhat truncated period for consideration and scrutiny prior to its Second Reading. The Draft Spaceflight Bill, as it was then called, was published on 21 February, with an invitation sent to some three or four Select Committees to consider the measures proposed in the draft Bill. No deadline for reporting was apparently given. Nevertheless, the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee began its consideration of the draft Bill on 2 March, with the aim of reporting before the end of the Session. The advent of the general election rather curtailed its proceedings, including an evidence session with the Minister, but it published its report on 29 April. The committee received just 12 written submissions and took evidence from 12 witnesses.

As has been said, the Commons committee also wrote to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House, inviting it to consider whether the delegated powers in the draft Bill offered sufficient opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny—an invitation to which the DPRRC responded. However, the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee commented in its report:

“Cabinet Office guidance recommends giving committees ‘at least three to four months (excluding parliamentary recess)’ to scrutinise draft Bills. We have had had just over five sitting weeks”—


hardly a satisfactory state of affairs.

On behalf of the Government, the noble Lord the Minister wrote, presumably to a number of us on, I think, 28 June—the letter was headed “Dear Colleagues” —setting out the measures contained in the Bill and the Government’s reasons for bringing it forward. I thank him for that letter. The penultimate paragraph stated:

“Given the number of delegated powers contained within the Bill, the Government has committed to publishing policy scoping notes covering all regulation-making powers prior to Second Reading”.


Along with, I presume, other noble Lords, I received an email late yesterday afternoon with what I assume are the scoping notes—it looked like 94 pages. If that is the Government’s version of honouring the spirit, as opposed to the letter, of a commitment given two weeks previously, it is not mine.

So we have a Select Committee not given anywhere near the Cabinet Office guideline on the amount of time to consider draft Bills and we have a Government who think that producing a lengthy document in the late afternoon of the day before a Second Reading constitutes honouring a commitment to publish such a document “prior to Second Reading”. Bearing in mind that the Bill contains some 100 individual provisions containing delegated powers, one of which is a Henry VIII power, I am sure that many wonder whether this is but a dry run for the Government’s approach to both the legislation and to Parliament in seeking to implement the decision to withdraw from the European Union.

The letter from the noble Lord the Minister of 28 June also stated that,

“further engagement with industry and others will take place over the summer and I intend to make more information available regarding the Government’s approach to secondary legislation in advance of Committee Stage of the Bill”.

In the light of what has happened with the previous commitment to which I have referred, can the Minister now give a firm and specific commitment on how far in advance of Committee that further information will definitely be made available, bearing in mind the Government could seek to start the Committee stage immediately after we return from the recess or shortly afterwards? Indeed, it might be helpful if the noble Lord the Minister could point out to his relevant government colleagues the extent to which the Bill provides for delegated powers and the commitments that have been given on providing further information on the Government’s approach to secondary legislation, and suggest that it would be better if there was a breathing space between the return from recess and the start of the Committee stage.

The Outer Space Act 1986 provides the current legal framework for the UK to fulfil its obligations under the United Nations space treaties, which require any UK organisation or individual launching, procuring a launch or operating space objects to be licensed. These licensing powers rest with the Secretary of State and are administered by the UK Space Agency. To date, as has already been said, launches licensed by the UK Space Agency have taken place overseas. The Civil Aviation Authority recommended that the regulatory regime for spaceflight activities be updated, following its review of UK commercial space plane operations in 2014. At the end of 2015, the Government published a national space strategy. Following that, we now have this Bill, whose purpose is to make provision to enable commercial spaceflight activities to be carried out from the United Kingdom for the first time in the light of the expectation that the global market for small satellites will grow rapidly.

The space sector has already delivered important benefits to the UK economy, generating a turnover of just under £12 billion in 2012-13 and employing at that time some 35,000 people. A 2016 assessment reported that the space industry was worth £13.7 billion in 2014-15, equivalent to 6.5% of the global space economy, and contributed £5.1 billion gross value added to the UK’s economic output. The UK Space Agency has said that a majority of income generated by the space industry, nearly 75%, comes from space applications such as the services which use satellite data directly. Space operations, such as operating satellites and ground stations, constitute 15% of the income generated.

As the noble Lord the Minister has said, the Bill seeks to create a regulatory framework to enable commercial spaceflight activities, launch to orbit and sub-orbit spaceflight to be carried out from spaceports in the United Kingdom, and for the licensing of spaceflight activities. Clauses within the Bill make provision for the grant of licences, the establishment of ranges, safety and security as well as liabilities, indemnities and insurance. The Bill will apply only to activities conducted in the United Kingdom and will restrict the application of the current legislation in force, namely the Outer Space Act 1986, to activities conducted outside the UK. While the Government have said that the UK’s obligations under international and EU space law, as it is currently practised, would continue to be enforced under this Bill in respect of the UK, where is that spelled out, for example, in relation to contamination of outer space in compliance with the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and covered in the Outer Space Act 1986, which would no longer apply to activities conducted in the United Kingdom?

The 1968 Act refers to a set of comprehensive standards applicable to the design and functioning of space vehicles, but these do not appear to be carried over into this Bill, which will, in future, regulate activities conducted in the UK. What are the Government’s intentions in this regard? On licensing, why does the Bill not clarify the differing nature and duration of licences for the different parties involved, and the need for certification? Is it really the Government’s intention that all this should be left to secondary legislation? Nor does the Bill appear to include provisions related to health and safety, environmental protection, local planning and other issues associated with on-site activities. Why does the Bill not do this?

We support the thrust of the Bill, which, as has already been said, has the support of the space industry, not least because of its focus on enabling commercial spaceflight from the United Kingdom. The major downside of the Bill, to which I have already referred, is the lack of detail, which makes detailed scrutiny somewhat difficult. It is in effect still a skeletal Bill which places a lot of powers in the hands of the regulators and the Secretary of State. Consequently, the Bill contains a very considerable number of delegated powers—as I have said, around 100 provisions—to bring forward secondary legislation in the future. While there is clearly an argument for having a flexible regulatory structure in a field of activity where there are many unknowns, there is also a need to provide for meaningful parliamentary debate and scrutiny, which cannot be achieved through secondary legislation in the way that it can through primary legislation.

The Government have, as has been said, made some changes from what was in the draft Bill in the light of the reports and consideration by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House, and that is to be welcomed, but the issue of whether the changes go far enough in meeting the concerns raised by those committees, and by others, is one that will have to be considered in more detail at further stages of the Bill, and in the light of further documents received from the Government only late yesterday afternoon by email, and further information that is to be provided by the Government prior to Committee. However, in its delegated powers memorandum dated 28 June the Department for Transport, in noting the concern of the DPRR Committee that some powers dealing with matters of significant public interest, such as safety and security, were subject to the negative resolution procedure, went on to say:

“However, switching these to affirmative procedure in all cases could take up a disproportionate amount of parliamentary time and might discourage timely updating because of difficulties in securing parliamentary debates”.


So much for the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and accountability. The Government appear, at heart, to regard it all as a bit of an inconvenience.

I would add, of course, that the Government have proposed a compromise in respect of some delegated powers with a “first-use” affirmative procedure, with the negative procedure thereafter. The Government’s response as a whole will need to be considered carefully, but as the DPRR Committee said in its response, while flexibility and adaptability are key to the underlying technology,

“it does not follow that legal matters affecting the rights of the general public should be governed by considerations of ‘flexibility’; quite the contrary”.

My noble friend Lord Haskel is not able to be here today to take part in this debate, but I know he has issues in relation to the regulations for operations and safety and standards, and other matters, in what is a highly competitive market, with thousands of new satellites required over the next five to 10 years and companies planning commercial spaceflights. Without international collaboration on standards, there is likely to be little collaboration in business. Is it the Government’s objective that the standards of safety and security outlined in the Bill should satisfy all potential customers? What protections are envisaged against cyberattacks seeking to cause disruption and damage? Presumably, launches and landings become more vulnerable to attack, with potentially tragic consequences, with the move to digital systems. If the navigation system is open to attack, the results could be even more tragic. This does not appear to have been addressed in the relevant clauses in the Bill, so what reassurances or commitments can the Government provide?

The Bill refers to horizontal launches and vertical launches and establishing a new centre for these. Are the Government looking at adapting existing aerodromes, which would presumably already have some infrastructure for access, service and accommodation? What intentions or restrictions do the Government have in mind in respect of the location, ownership and operation of a spaceport or space station? In respect of horizontal launches, sub-orbital space tourism is presumably the major market and there are spaceport promoters interested in bringing this to the UK. Once members of the public are flying in a spacecraft, other concerns emerge, with the spacecraft becoming more like a commercial aircraft. Presumably, the CAA will be largely responsible for the regulatory environment in this situation. Issues have already been raised in this House, including by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, about the potential dangers posed to aircraft by drones—and, indeed, by the use of lasers—and they could equally apply with the public flying in spacecraft. Do the Government intend to address this in the Bill?

With a major increase in the number of satellites, how do the Bill’s provisions relate to international efforts to reduce the amount of junk? In some instances, there will no doubt be reusable spacecraft. How does the Bill regulate returning craft? Will this be controlled by the UK Space Agency and the CAA, and will they have to co-operate in this with other agencies? If that is the case, how does the Bill envisage this being done?

Finally, is it the Government’s intention to retain our membership of the European Space Agency, which is independent of the European Commission? If so, is that space agency satisfied with the Bill’s provisions?

I conclude by reiterating our support for the general thrust and intent of the Bill, but not for some of the lack of detail in it. No doubt there can be further discussions about the Bill prior to Committee, which looks as though it may not be until October. I hope that those discussions, as well as our discussions in further stages of the Bill, will resolve some of the questions about the lack of detail in the Bill.

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s Second Reading for their, as ever, very informed questions, which they were quite right to ask. The challenge and the debate are welcomed by the Government and will help us strengthen the Bill. I appreciate the broad support that has been shown for the Bill’s ambition. I reiterate the point that I have made to a number of noble Lords, both publicly and privately, that we are looking to co-operate on all sides of the House on this matter with Members from all parties and none. I am always available to discuss aspects of it and I have written to a number of Members to make that point. I thank my right honourable friend the Minister of State at the Department for Transport, who was sitting on the steps of the Throne earlier. I was delighted to see him paying such close attention to our proceedings.

I will try to address many of the points that have been made. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, for her astute analysis of the UK space industry and her support for the Bill. On the issue that she raised concerning the comparable provisions to those in Section 1 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to promote the development of the space industry in the UK, I agree that the Government should recognise the need to promote growth in this sector. The Deregulation Act 2015 provides for a growth study to apply to functions specified by order. Statutory Instrument 2017/267 already lists functions under the Outer Space Act 1986, and we propose to amend this SI to also list functions under the Bill. My noble friend also shares the concerns of a number of other noble Lords—my noble friend Lord Moynihan also mentioned this—about over- regulation of this emerging market. This is a concern we are very alive to, and the Bill establishes a proportionate framework to support growth in this emerging sector while adequately balancing government and operator rights, the safety provisions and other factors dedicated to it. In exercising the powers in the Bill, the Government will ensure proportionality, and we intend to consult fully on all the secondary legislation required to implement these measures.

Engaging with agencies such as ICAO was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Through the DfT and the Civil Aviation Authority, the UK has been working as part of a joint ICAO/UNOOSA space learning group better to understand how commercial spaceflight fits in with the global air navigation structure and how regulation will need to adapt to the new industry. ICAO has not yet developed detailed rules on spaceflight.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also raised the issue of the carriage of nuclear materials. We do not intend to permit the carriage of any nuclear materials. Paragraph 3 of Schedule 3 allows for prohibitions and restrictions on this. There may be exceptions regarding everyday appliances such as smoke detectors, which routinely use small quantities of technically radioactive material.

We do not believe that the Bill engages obligations to produce an environmental impact assessment. Environmental impacts are heavily correlated with the type, frequency and location of spaceflight activities. At this stage, it is very difficult to ascertain specific environmental issues. For example, the sensitivities of a site cannot be known until we know the location of the spaceport.

My noble friend Lord Moynihan and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised international agreements, and they were right to do so. We have put in place a number of agreements to enable commercial spaceflight in the UK. The type and nature of these agreements depends largely on the technology used, how and where it is operated and what it is used for. The UK complies with all existing space treaty obligations, and we are working to secure the agreements necessary to enable commercial spaceflight to take place from the UK.

On a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I should say that the UK Space Agency’s international partnership programme uses UK R&D to support international development. This supports developing countries to use satellite solutions for problems such as deforestation and disaster relief. My noble friend Lord Moynihan asked about the Government’s support for the development of this emerging market in the UK, and a number of other Members raised a similar point. The UK Space Agency published details of the grant process in February, including our processes for assessing proposals and the criteria we would apply. We have engaged extensively with the parties who submitted funding proposals, to ensure that our process is transparent. The proposals were naturally submitted to the Government in commercial confidence and noble Lords will understand that I cannot disclose details now. However, I can confirm that in line with the process set out in February, the UK Space Agency is currently considering these proposals with independent expert advice, and I expect it will announce the outcome of the process later in the year.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord McNally, raised questions around the European Space Agency. The Government’s policy to exit the EU does not affect the UK’s membership of the European Space Agency. The UK has a strong and healthy space economy with an international outlook. We have a long history of collaboration and participation in European space programmes and missions through the European Space Agency. The Government will continue to take an active role in European space programmes, supporting UK industry in its bids to win contracts overseas and developing our national capability to keep the UK competitive in the global market.

The issue of affirmative regulations was also raised by my noble friend Lord Moynihan. We need a proportionate approach for aviation. Section 60 of the Civil Aviation Act enables all aviation safety rules to be made by negative procedure. These safety rules are likely to be amended frequently. We aim to lay statutory instruments in summer 2019, and licences can be issued once these are in force.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised the issue of range ownership. Our intention is for these to be privately owned. Foreign ownership is not prohibited. A licence cannot be granted of course unless the applicant is a fit and proper person.

My noble friend Lord Dunlop asked me about the number of spaceports. The Bill does not restrict the number of licences that could be issued for spaceports. However, the decisions on licensing would be based on eligibility, alternative criteria requirements and safety standards. I noted his strong advocacy of Scotland, along with that of my noble friend Lord Moynihan—we have a lot of interest from Scotland, particularly given the rural nature of many of its locations. We are working closely with the devolved Administrations, but I hope that my noble friends would not expect an Englishman with Irish roots to adjudicate on this process. My noble friend Lord Dunlop also asked me about ITAR and knowledge transfer. The Bill includes provisions for entering into agreements with other countries, including the provision for knowledge transfer and to ensure that we can meet the ITAR constraints that may be imposed on us by the United States.

The issue of liabilities was raised by a number of noble Lords. We have taken the power in the Bill to cap liabilities. However, we can assure industry of our intention to cap liabilities only in circumstances for which analysis has already been carried out to determine the current liability cap policy under the Outer Space Act 1986, as amended by the Deregulation Act 2015. For other circumstances, we hope to carry out the analysis as quickly as possible to further promulgate our policy decision.

My noble friend Lord Balfe and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised the issue of drones. Your Lordships will be aware that the department completed a consultation on the safe use of drones in the UK in March. We are considering the responses received and developing outcomes on this, and I hope the Government’s position will be released very soon.

My noble friend Lord Suri asked me about consultation. We will discuss the proposed structure of the statutory instruments and how this fits with industry views. We intend to publish a database containing more detail on regulatory functions including spaceflights, on existing international best practice under each of those functions, and on initial assessments of risks associated with each of these functions before and after regulatory activity has taken place. We expect that this will start the conversation on the licensing framework and can inform discussions with insurers about the level of residual risk, and therefore start to gauge the potential appetite for insurers to enter the market.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked me about timetables for launch. I am slightly hesitant on this, but we intend to lay statutory instruments in summer 2019. Once these have entered into force, regulators will be in a position to accept licence applications, which we expect will be processed in roughly 12 to 18 months. Please take that with a slight pinch of salt—these things can change and there are lots of considerations still to go through—but it might help as a rough timetable.

I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about the policy scoping notes. Please accept my apologies that they came out late, but I wanted to get them issued before we sat down today. I appreciate it is very difficult to read a 94-page document in advance of this debate, but the policy scoping notes are not provided for discussion: they are our initial statement of intention with regard to the use of delegated powers and the need to consult on the use of powers given their importance and impact and the need to carry out analysis and assessment of criteria for determining safe levels of risk, for example. I confirm that it is not currently our intention to take Committee immediately after the holiday break in September. It will be a few weeks after that, subject to the vagaries of the Whips, and not immediately we return after recess.

[Lord Rosser]

I thank the Minister for that comment. It had certainly been my understanding that it was not going to be in September anyway. What is of concern—given the extent of devolved powers, with further information still to come—is if on the first or second day back in October, the Committee stage of the Bill is scheduled. What I meant by breathing space was a breathing space in October before we start Committee.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not in a position to confirm that yet. As soon as I get further information from those who deal with these matters, I will let the noble Lord know. I intend to work as closely as possible with all noble Lords on this; when I have further information, I will share it with him.

On the question of licensing and insurance for mega constellations, space activities are risky in nature and the Government may be required to pay compensation for damage caused as a result of spaceflight and related activities carried out by UK entities or launched from the UK. The insurance requirement is one of the provisions in the Bill to protect the Government and the public by ensuring that there is a resource to meet such claims. We do not believe that small satellites pose the same risks to the space environment. Further work will be undertaken on the insurance requirement for the different activities licensed.

The UK has played a major part in developing the main EU space programmes—Galileo and Copernicus—and space surveillance and tracking, which have supported the rapid growth of the UK space sector and contributed directly to our prosperity and security. It is a global success story, leveraging our best talent to deliver highly innovative products and services every year, and we want that to continue if at all possible.

The noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Rosser, asked me about delegated powers. The Bill contains 71 clauses, 12 schedules and 100 delegated powers. This large number of delegated powers—I accept that it is a lot—is required because the commercial spaceflight environment is innovative, highly technical and fast changing. It is important that we have the flexibility given by secondary legislation to adapt to keep pace with this emerging market, as both UK regulators and the space industry develop expertise in this area. The Bill sets out the regulatory framework for a novel, dynamic and diverse industry, accommodating a wide range of different technologies. It aims to provide sufficient certainty and assurance to Parliament, regulators, industry and the general public while simultaneously having the flexibility to allow industry to grow. Early feedback so far from industry is that this flexibility is seen as vital. A rigid approach that offered limited opportunity to keep pace with either the development of spaceflight or the enhanced experience of the regulators would be restrictive for the sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me about horizontal and vertical launch. He is correct: currently, we expect existing aerodromes to be most interested in conducting horizontal launch activities. I would expect vertical launch activities to be from a mixture of existing aerodromes and new facilities, subject to the strict licensing conditions that we have put in place. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked me about flags of convenience. Responsible operators may be attracted to launch from the UK, but our vigorous approach to safety should deter less responsible persons.

[Lord Callanan]

I can confirm that we are in extensive consultation with industry players. My honourable friend was visiting Surrey Satellites this morning for discussion on various aspects of the Bill and its commercial operations.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who asked me about international environmental obligations under the Bill. They are covered by duties of the regulator in Clause 2 and under numerous other clauses, including Clause 8. We would not grant a licence if it were inconsistent with our international obligations. We have reviewed the relevant international, environmental treaties and obligations and the national requirements that may apply to spaceflight activities, and have concluded that we do not need any specific new provisions in the Space Industry Bill, but spaceflight activities and spaceports will, of course, have to fully comply with all existing planning and environmental requirements.

In relation to cyber interference, for conventional aviation we keep transport security under constant review, and we will do the same for spaceflight activities. We already work closely with partners across government and industry on restrictions between horizontal and vertical spaceports. I hope that I have responded to most points put by noble Lords, but if not there will perhaps be an opportunity to explore these issues further.

We have covered lots of vital areas and extremely important issues in this debate. Noble Lords were right to focus on issues of safety, environment and growth of the industry. I am sure that we will return to many of these issues in Committee. Once again, I thank all noble Lords for their general warm welcome for the Bill, notwithstanding some of the concerns expressed. As I said earlier, I look forward to working with noble Lords both in and outside the Chamber to ensure that we strengthen the Bill’s provisions as it makes its passage through the House

[Lord Rosser]

Before the noble Lord sits down—I thank him for the responses to the questions raised—if he finds that he has been unable for very good reasons to respond to all the questions raised, and I will not confine this to my questions, can we take it that he will write in response to those questions he has not dealt with?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course. We have a meeting planned for next week anyway, when we can perhaps discuss these issues further. I will be very happy to clarify and give more detail on any of the points we have spoken about. With that, I conclude by asking the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.

Electric Car Ownership

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We have the largest investment programme for electric vehicles in Europe and we are the largest market for electric vehicles in Europe. One in five electric vehicles sold in Europe is manufactured in the UK. We have an extremely ambitious programme. Indeed, it was started under the coalition Government, and I would have thought that the Liberal Democrats would be quite proud of that.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, I presume that encouraging electric car ownership is a cross-departmental government policy, and the noble Lord is of course answering on behalf of the Government as a whole. What is the Government’s estimate of the impact of the increase in electric car ownership over the next five years and the next 10 years on the tax take from the sale of petrol and diesel fuel, and how will the Government compensate for or make up any reduction in such tax revenues resulting from increasing electric car ownership?

[Lord Callanan]

Noble Lords will probably realise that it is very dangerous for me to speculate on what the Chancellor might do in future Budgets with regard to tax levels.

Southern Rail: Gibb Report

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

There have certainly been no attempts to run the service on the cheap and I do not agree with the noble Baroness that performance over the past six months has been poor. In fact, since strike action has been reduced, Southern Rail’s performance has significantly improved in the past six months. Its public performance measure, which measures performance across train operators, is up by 23 percentage points—from 62% in early December to 85% now. We want and expect that figure to improve further but, as Chris Gibb’s report makes clear, that can happen only if industrial action by the trade unions stops.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

In his report, Mr Gibb recommended that the Government should “urgently consider” transferring the East Croydon to Milton Keynes and Great Northern metro services from the problem-ridden GTR franchise to Transport for London in 2018. Mr Gibb also indicated that similar consideration might be given to transferring the inner-London Southern metro services in time for franchise renewal in 2021. The current Secretary of State for Transport previously made it clear that he would not transfer any further rail services to TfL, as that would mean giving control over more routes to a Labour mayor. The Government have now had six months to consider Mr Gibb’s recommendations on transferring more routes to TfL. What is the Government’s response to those recommendations—particularly those relating to 2018—and what are the reasons for the conclusions that the Government have reached on transferring more rail routes to TfL in the light of Mr Gibb’s recommendations?

[Lord Callanan]

Chris Gibb’s report sets out several reasons why Southern Rail faced problems last year, including disruption from infrastructure works, the process of introducing new trains and insufficient numbers of drivers at the start of the franchise. The Secretary of State has now ordered the operator to reduce reliance on overtime, which means that it has started to increase the number of drivers, although that has an 18-month lead time. We decided to proceed with 34 of Chris Gibb’s 38 recommendations, but the transfer of additional lines to TfL was not one that we proceeded with.

Aviation

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As the noble Baroness is aware, air quality is a national issue, and we take it extremely seriously. The final plan on air quality is due to be published on 31 July. If the Heathrow Airport decision proceeds, the impact on air quality will be taken fully into account. Moreover, Heathrow Airport has committed to moving passengers from their cars and on to public transport and has recently committed to no overall increase in car movements to and from Heathrow in the event of a third runway proceeding.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I add my welcome to the Minister in his new position and I express my best wishes to his predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, in his new role. I suspect that he will find himself spending more time inside an aircraft as a Foreign Office Minister than he did as Aviation Minister.

We have had a statement this morning about the financial support the UK Government are prepared to make available to Northern Ireland following discussions between the Conservative Party and the Democratic Unionist Party. It says:

“A detailed consultative report will be commissioned into the impact of VAT and APD—


air passenger duty—

“on tourism in Northern Ireland to recommend how best to build upon the growing success of that sector”.

Are similar consultative reports being commissioned into the impact of air passenger duty on tourism in other parts of the United Kingdom? If not, why not?

[Lord Callanan]

As someone who uses regional airports regularly, the issue of air passenger duty is, of course, high on my agenda. I am sure the noble Lord will understand that, as a Minister only a couple of weeks into his appointment, were I to start rewriting the Chancellor’s Budget proposals at this stage I would not last very long.