Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Rennard Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

Perhaps the Minister would agree with me that the reason why we have a cut-off for applying for a postal vote before an election is to create that gap, so that the list provided to polling station presiding officers on the day is up to date and shows who has been given a postal vote. Thus a ballot paper for a non-postal vote cannot be issued on polling day to someone who has already been issued with a postal vote.

Many issues have been raised by noble Lords in this short debate. With the exception of the contributions of the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, the prejudice of people who over many years have organised elections as election agents has been confirmed. Those who have stood as candidates in elections understand very little about the laws that govern the elections. Those of us who have got on with the business of organising elections understand that none of the issues raised in the debate has caused any problems in the 28 years since the 1983 legislation—or indeed in the decades before that—and that it would be most unwise in this debate suddenly to start revising our election laws so that we would have different election laws for the conduct of the referendum from those that we will have for the elections that will also take place on 5 May this year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 124 and Schedule 10 stand part on behalf of my noble friend Lord Rooker.

Amendment 123 relates to rule 7 of Schedule 10 on page 295. The heading to the schedule concerns the rules on how alternative vote elections will take place, if we should ever come to that.

Those of us who have been lucky enough to attend local government election results nights will know that there is nothing as exciting as a tied vote. They will remember for the rest of their lives the thrill of someone winning by random as opposed to the will of the electorate—particularly the winner; the loser perhaps not so much. The question my noble friend poses in the amendment is whether that thrill is justified—in other words, whether it is justifiable and inevitable for such decisions to be made by lot or by the toss of a coin—or whether there is a better way of doing it. That is what the amendment is about.

My noble friend’s view—it may be the view of other noble Lords—is that we should not decide elections by lot in any circumstances; that the voters should decide. Under the alternative vote system—if, as I say, it comes into force—the possibilities of a tied vote are extensive at each round of counting in a highly marginal seat. Even in a safe seat it is possible—although not as likely—for, say, candidates five and six to tie. My noble friend is against tossing a coin and he offers a simple solution, as his amendment makes clear. His solution is that if there is a tie at any stage in the proceedings under the alternative vote system, there should be a run-off between the two top candidates within a period of one month.

[Lord Rennard]

Why does the noble Lord think that this should apply at any point in the counting process? I have demanded recounts and seen how results have gone one way and then the other; as an election agent, in the past I have settled for a result when exactly the same result has been produced twice. Those with experience of recounts may wonder why it would be logical to abandon the count and have a re-run if the count at one point produces a dead heat but then, when you have checked more carefully and have found a few more ballot papers for one candidate, the result has gone another way. There may later be another count and again a clear result with a majority for one candidate. Surely it does not make sense to say that you should have a rerun at any stage if there is an equality of votes. There may be a case for a re-run if there is a dead heat after several recounts, but surely not at any stage in the counting process. That is simply not logical.

[Lord Bach]

I take on board what the noble Lord has said. He is right—there should be recounts for those who finish equal sixth, for example, to ascertain who finished sixth and who finished seventh. Of course that should take place. However, if at the end of it there is an equality of votes between the top two candidates, the amendment suggests that there should be a run off within a month. If there is a tie at any stage between the top two candidates—not the fifth and the sixth but those with the most votes—there should then be a run off. Of course, there would be recounts galore to ensure that the numbers are equal, but that sometimes happens.