Local Better Regulation Office (Dissolution and Transfer of Functions, Etc.) Order 2012

Lord Razzall Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Razzall]

My Lords, I support my noble friend on her proposals regarding this order. Whereas I sympathise with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, that this is government fashion, behind that fashion lies a fundamental democratic principle. There are a lot of us who believe that one of the problems with the proliferation of the creation of these bodies over the last 10 to 15 years is that the democratic accountability of what they do was lost.

I can give an example to the noble Lord, Lord Young, about the difference: were this order not to be passed so that this organisation were kept in place, when he stood up to ask the Minister a question about the activities or the proposals that he has concerns about, she would, quite rightly, have said that it was not a matter for her but for this body. In future, when he has a concern about what happens, because it is within the department, she will be accountable for the activities of the people concerned. I know that, as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said, it is the fashion of this Government to abolish as many of these bodies as possible, either entirely or bringing their activities within the relevant ministry, and I have some sympathy with his view that the Bill tried to attempt too much and that far too many bodies were initially included, but my fundamental belief is that wherever possible these bodies should be democratically accountable. That is particularly the case here.

I have three questions, one of which has been touched on by noble Lords on the Labour Benches. First, one of the things that are clearly emerging is that a lot of the bodies being abolished, or whose activities are being brought within the relevant department, have a lot of property assets. In this case, is there a significant property asset that will be released or sold, and do we know its value? Secondly, the Minister indicated that from April most of the staff within the organisation will be transferred to employment within the department. Have they signed up to do that or do we just hope that they will? My third point follows up the point that both noble Lords made about the representative steering group. The document indicates that there was a 50:50 split in the consultation over what should happen. Where do we think we are? What is the timing of the decision to decide what that representative steering group should be?

[Baroness Wilcox]

I am trying very hard to make sure that I can answer as many questions as possible. It does not seem that long ago that I was standing in this Room—perhaps it was a couple of years ago—at the birth of the LBRO. At that time, I wondered whether we needed another organisation. Here I am now saying that we do, but that we are going to keep it to ourselves and I am going to be responsible for it, whatever it does. I thought that I had made a very long and detailed speech to try to cover as many points as I possibly could this time round, but obviously all I have done is to provoke people with expertise in this area to come back at me with questions. I hope that I am going to be able to answer them.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, talked about the Federation of Small Businesses. Small businesses want to see greater benefits. One is that we have announced that we will make assured guidance available to them: a benefit of the primary authority. He also asked about the primary authority. The power to direct remains in the case of the primary authority; it is in other guidance where the power to enforce will be removed. He also spoke about the RSG minutes. We have not yet considered publication of the minutes, but we will look at that proposal. It was not raised in consultation, but I see no reason why they should not be published. If there is no great objection, I do not see why he should not have what he has asked for.

The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said that the savings will be very modest and will not in themselves address the deficit. That is not quite what we meant. The savings, which will be £6.4 million over 10 years, are not insignificant given the financial situation we find ourselves in. I hope I was very clear in my statement that we want to make sure that the excellent work that the LBRO has done continues, but any money at all that we can manage to save by reorganising should be saved. We hope to be able to continue with the same people and do the same work while cutting the overhead costs.

The noble Lords, Lord Borrie and Lord Razzall, talked about the representative steering group’s split responses. The role of the RSG was supported by 80 per cent of respondents and any split responses reflected a debate as to the membership, with many of the respondents actually wanting to be on it themselves. That was the real balance of the argument there.

In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, on accountability, the RSG will represent a balanced range of stakeholder perspectives and aim to strike the right balance between the regulators and those whom regulation seeks to protect; to provide advice on the strategic direction and approach of the organisation; to provide oversight of the operation of the primary authority to ensure that due process is followed; and to have its membership reviewed regularly and refreshed to open up engagement and encourage new perspectives. It will be no more than 12 individuals, not operate as a formal body and not oversee day-to-day operations of the BRDO, which we hope will add even more to the great work that it has already done.

The noble Lord, Lord Razzall, talked about the property assets. In answer to his question, no—lease transfers will be consolidated with other BIS estates. Sadly, we do not have very expensive property assets that we can get rid of. I note that the noble Lord supported what I introduced today in this regard. On his question about whether employees have agreed to come, yes, all the employers in post at the date of transfer have agreed to be transferred to the department and will continue to work from Birmingham for the foreseeable future. The noble Lord also asked about business sign-up. As he suspected, business had some concerns. We have certainly attempted to listen to those; the operational independence in the primary authority is an important element of that, and keeping the business reference panel is also important. Businesses have questions, but are broadly supportive of the proposals. We will of course continue to listen to their questions and worries as we go forward.

Consistency and continual improvement in the regulatory landscape are essential if we are to progressively strive to provide an even stronger, more supportive environment in which our businesses can strengthen, prosper and grow for the benefit of our whole economy. The needs to support greater transparency and accountability, to create a more effective regulatory policy on development and to provide a strong voice for regulatory reform at the heart of government are not in dispute. This order underpins those objectives, and I therefore commend it to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

Perhaps I can try to be helpful, because I do not want us to take up more time than we need to, but that is not quite what it says in the Explanatory Memorandum. I notice that the Minister’s officials are nodding. Perhaps the best thing that the Minister could do is to write to us and clarify the situation.

[Lord Razzall]

Perhaps the Minister could specifically explain, when she writes, how what she said relates to paragraph 8.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which seems to suggest that,

“the power to direct local authorities, and … to enforce service improvement will be stopped”.

It does not seem to reflect that, but that is actually what it says.

[Baroness Wilcox]

My Lords, I am always reluctant to say that I will write because it sounds like a cop-out. I always try if I can to get the answer on the day, but I am obviously not giving as clear a response as is required by your Lordships. I will, of course, write, if that is acceptable.

[Lord Razzall]

We are perfectly happy for you to buy us a drink.