Probation Services: Privatisation

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Thursday 31st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the request of the Chief Executives of Probation Trusts to delay the proposed privatisation of probation services for six months in the interests of public safety.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally) (LD)]

My Lords, there is a pressing need to drive down reoffending rates, which is why we are reforming the system for the rehabilitation of offenders. Public safety is always our top priority, and the department is working closely with trusts to minimise any disruption to the work that they do to protect the public.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but letters from experienced chief executives of probation trusts directly to a Secretary of State suggest a worrying lack of trust in the system between them. Behind those letters is an understandable concern about the current timetable in which chief executives were required to start work on 28 October, three days ago, on a realignment process for their staff that has to be completed by 31 January 2014, including the confirmation of outcomes for all their staff. However, despite frequent requests, as of yesterday they had not been provided with any details of the number of posts, the workload or the resources on which they can base any assessment, let alone allocation. Apparently, much depends on a risk assessment process that has yet to be resolved. When will these details be available, and why will the Secretary of State not agree to a reasonable and sensible request for delay?

[Lord McNally]

Any transformation programme is difficult, and keeping to a timetable is always challenging, but I do not believe that a six-month delay would promote better or more efficient work than is now being done. Of course we will keep these matters under review and check how progress is being made. There is a campaign in some quarters against the idea of these proposals but, in the main, we are having very constructive discussions with the trusts. I am confident that we will be able to keep to the tight but achievable timetable that we have set.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I support the amendment and I am extremely glad to see that it has been introduced by the Government. For many years people have been hoping that there would be an improvement, and therefore it is to be warmly welcomed. The amendment refers to arrangements for supervision. I would like to raise one point in connection with that because the supervision, of course, involves the probation service.

As noble Lords will know, each of the 35 trusts has a volunteer probation board which is the employer of all the probation staff working in a trust. Apparently, there is an expectation that board members do not criticise the wishes of the Government because although they are volunteers, they are not civil servants. They have been reminded by the head of Transforming Rehabilitation that they should have regard to the constraints imposed on civil servants. I have had representations from board members about the vote which was passed in this House on Report about the requirement for the Secretary of State to allow us to discuss changes to be made to the probation service. Apparently, the board says that planning is going ahead on the timetable which I outlined on Report regardless of the vote in this House. Probation staff around the country are, as he described it, lost for words because it was expected that at the very least the Government would respect the vote of this House and reconsider their proposals, or at least appear to do so. As it seems that that is not happening, and this amendment is all about the supervision of women offenders, I should be grateful if the Minister could tell the House exactly what is happening following the vote on Report.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, perhaps I may deal with that matter first. The Bill is now in this House. It will then go to the other place, which will also have views about an amendment which the noble Lord was told at the time was defective and which remains defective. I do not think I can go any further than that. We will see what the other House thinks about the amendment and in due course it will come back to this House to be dealt with.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his kind remarks. He will find that that gives him a warm glow and so I recommend that he continues to make a habit of it. As my noble friend Lord Marks has said, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has a good strike record on these Bills and I very much enjoy working with him and benefiting from his wisdom. On the question of the report on progress in dealing with women in the criminal justice system, we will be reporting to Parliament and we will be able to see the progress not only of these measures, but of others that we are taking.

With regard to the prison estate, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has drawn attention to an issue that we are currently looking at. We have a number of thoughts on this matter and a study is being undertaken of the prison estate. We will come forward with specific ideas about how released prisoners and the specific issue of women offenders will be dealt with.

On contracts, the contract specifications will set out the services that contracts are obliged to provide. The contract will contain specific outputs designed to meet the needs of female offenders. In order to comply with this new duty, the contract will state that the Secretary of State has,

“complied with the duty under section 149 of the Equality Act”,

and will also draw attention to the specific outputs. As my noble friend Lord Marks pointed out, we will publish these contracts and they will be brought forward with all possible transparency. I hope that this will give confidence and that the House will adopt the amendment.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention, which probably was not intended to be helpful, but certainly was. That is because these are the stakes we are playing for. I do not doubt the figures he has given and indeed I have seen them. Reoffending costs this country between £9 billion and £14 billion, so let us not say that we are going to aim to prevent 50% of reoffending. If we could get it down to 40%, just think what that would mean in hard cash. That is the prize we are aiming for. Of course it takes some radical thinking and means taking risks that are outside the box—that is exactly what we are doing. When there is a new idea, it is a lot easier to throw spanners in the works or to say what is so often said about any new and radical idea, “Let’s have a bit more time to think about it and take it all a bit more slowly”. We have put a lot of work into this project and, as we develop and unfold it, we are willing to share information with Members of this House and others. However, the noble Lord is quite right that, as well as the impact on offenders who are taken out of the cycle of crime, and apart from the impact on victims who will avoid the crimes that the rehabilitated will not commit, there really is big money to be saved by carrying this through. I am as enthusiastic and confident about it now as I was when we started, and I hope that the House will feel the same as it did when it gave the Bill an overwhelming Second Reading.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply and I thank all those who have taken part in this short debate. I have to admit to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that I had not considered the details she outlined as far as the legislation is concerned. I had always assumed that the existing national probation service was the National Probation Service. Absolute logic suggests that I should go away and rethink the wording of the amendment because we must get it correct if we are actually going to put something through.

I should say to the Minister that I am not opposed to the intent of this Bill and I never have been. Indeed, I started my speech by saying that. The Cross-Benches are not the Opposition and I rather resent being called the Opposition purely because we sometimes go against what the Government propose. I am simply concerned to do all that I possibly can to encourage the Government and to make certain that we can be convinced by the Government that every possible examination has been carried out into whether what is proposed is possible and practical and that as little damage is done as possible to the existing public services, which have given such outstanding service for so long.

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for a number of things that he said, in particular that we will have a debate. As he appreciates, one of the frustrations of this Bill is that it is not actually about the proposals—it is about the tools of the proposals. The legislation would suggest that although we can say what we like about those tools, it does not matter a damn, because the Secretary of State is going to go ahead anyway, encouraged by the legislation’s permission for him to do so. In that case, we would be denied any chance to have our say and to put our expertise and intent at the service of the Government. I am also very grateful for his explanation of what was going on, because we have not heard that before. I am very grateful that he will put copies of the things in the Library, because I suspect that many noble Lords do not actually follow everything that is on the internet in the way that officials might hope.

There is no need to involve a third party in the distance between the leaks and me—I received the documents last Thursday and have them in my possession now. I was laying my assessment of Ministry of Justice documents before the House and not a journalist’s interpretation of those documents. My concerns were, I think, quite reasonable. We were presented with a Bill on 9 May, on which we started work, but these assessments of risk were dated 21 May, which suggests that they came after the Bill. That is something about which I still seek reassurance.

I am extremely sorry that the Minister should have suggested that I am not happy to take it as well as give it. As he knows perfectly well, this refers to an incident—which I did not wish to lay before the House—when I complained to him that he had attributed views to me when I was not in the House and therefore unable to answer. I do not believe that we should conduct our business that way.

In view of the questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has raised, I have some concern about this, but I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said was very familiar, because of course it was also his Second Reading speech. I make no complaint, but I say to the Opposition that they may be on this side of the Box one day. If using this kind of amendment to prevent a Committee stage proceeding were to become too much of a habit, it would be very easy to gum up government business.

I associate myself with the noble Lord’s words about Sir Patrick Nairne, because I was also a Whitehall warrior for quite a long time. I worked with Sir Patrick in the 1970s. My experience of both Whitehall and Westminster makes me less than apologetic about our approach. Governments are always faced with attacks for having no policy and being too slow, or for having too many ideas and rushing Parliament. I would rather we had too many ideas.

The truth is that successive Governments have tried to tackle the challenge of rehabilitating offenders. We have put forward our proposals for scrutiny and I am old fashioned enough to believe that that is exactly what the Committee stage of a Bill is for. I look forward to the next eight hours or so today and to the next Committee day for the House to do its proper job of scrutiny and questioning, and I will do my best to give answers.

On the specifics of the impact assessment, I agree to take another look at it and see where we can update it for the benefit of the House. I will bring that impact assessment back before the Bill completes its stages in this House. I hope that will be in time for Report. However, as noble Lords on the other Benches who went through similar exercises will know, we have to hold back certain things for commercial reasons. We are about to enter negotiations to get the best deal for the taxpayer and therefore do not wish to reveal our entire hand in advance. I will update the impact assessment as much as I can but I suggest that we now get on with the work of the day and the work of this House, which is the detailed scrutiny of the Bill.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for what they have said. I am particularly grateful for the Minister’s reassurance that he will look at the impact assessment. That is hugely important not only for us but for the officials and members of the services who will carry out the work. Can the Minister say anything about the unanswered questions which I and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, that is what a Committee stage is for. I will try to answer as many of those questions as I can, but after the noble Lord’s experiences in the military, in Whitehall, in Parliament and in the various services, he will know that not all the questions he poses have an instant answer available. I have never hidden the fact that we are being innovative in what we are doing, and because of that, there is no track record to refer to. However, that does not resile from the fact that these are worthwhile proposals to be considered, and I am very willing, during the course of the examination of the Bill, to try to be as full in my answers as I can.

Probation Service: Community-sentenced Offenders

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the management of community-sentenced offenders will remain the responsibility of the Probation Service.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Transforming Rehabilitation consultation by my department closed on 22 February and we are now considering our response. We have proposed opening up the market for rehabilitation services to a more diverse range of providers, but the public sector will retain ultimate responsibility for public protection and will manage directly those offenders who pose the highest risk of serious harm to the public.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Last week, the Justice Secretary appeared before the Justice Select Committee in another place and said that we have a duty to supervise offenders in a consistent way and that he wanted to make the probation world more independent of Government and the big bureaucratic documents that tell them how to do their job. For 100 years until recently dissolved by its subordination to prisons, the probation service, in partnership with the police and the courts, was responsible for the consistent supervision of community-sentenced offenders independent of such interference. Can the Minister tell the House how the Justice Secretary’s proposed division of responsibility for the supervision of different types of offender between probation and an unknown number of untried private and voluntary sector organisations will better honour his duty of consistency?

Transforming Rehabilitation

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

First, I pay tribute to the right relevant Prelat for both the leadership and the contribution that the churches make to prison chaplaincies and for their support in the wider community. In previous debates I have referred to visits I have made to St Albans and Norwich, where the cathedrals are the centre of community efforts in rehabilitation. He makes a very relevant point about the voluntary sector. A new commitment within the group is that we will make available £500,000 of seed corn to help voluntary groups prepare proper business cases for participation. We will also build into the system for awarding contracts that organisations which include voluntary and local groups, and can clearly demonstrate that they are making full use of their expertise, will probably have a much better chance of winning contracts.

I hope that those two parts of the package—help in preparing a proper business case and a contractual advantage if they are included in bids by larger groupings—will ensure that local and voluntary organisations have a proper participation. Indeed, we would be disappointed if this was not one of the results of what we are doing. We want the ideas, initiatives and commitment that voluntary and local groups can bring to this as part of what we have termed a revolution.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I welcome the commitment to reducing the dreadful rate of reoffending. As an aside, I notice that the Minister did not add to his list of the factors that prevent reoffending the one that is said to mean most—a 30th birthday.

I would like to take up two points; first, the point that the Minister made at the end of the Statement—namely, that this is a very serious subject and needs a very serious debate. Will the Government be prepared to allow that debate? So far, we have not had an opportunity to debate the previous consultation which is swept up in this one. There is so much involved that it is terribly important that the issues contained in this should be properly debated in the House, whether at the end of this consultation period or not. I ask him for that.

Secondly, this business of “through the gate” and picking people up is not new. The previous Government introduced a programme called custody plus which was designed to do exactly that, but it was dropped because of fears that it would result in too many people being given short sentences which would be accompanied by this sort of follow-up. I wonder whether that same sum has been done here. The figures at present show an 8.3% success rate above the short sentence in prison rate being achieved by the probation service with short-sentence prisoners, but what we are seeing is a proposal for a complete change, not the reinforcement of success.

My second question to the Minister is this. We are dealing with offenders and offenders are dealt with by people, so offender management must be made the responsibility of someone. We have talked about responsibility for high-risk offenders and the fact that the probation service will be responsible for the initial risk assessment, but we have not had any indication of what will happen during the sentence if a medium or low-risk offender changes the level of risk. Who will be responsible for that? Will the probation service remain responsible throughout this process for the overall management of offenders on community sentences?

[Lord McNally]

I thank the noble Lord for those questions. I will certainly have a look at what he refers to as the “through the gate” experience and if the Minister responsible is now in this House, I might ask him or her about their experience. Nevertheless, there is overwhelming evidence that through-the-gate help and preparation before prison, along with being met at the gate and helped afterwards, has an impact.

The probation service will continue to have oversight across the piece. Part of the consultation will be about how light-touch that will be in terms of the day-to-day management of offenders, but we are conscious of the evidence that risk can change during the process of supervision and that there may well be a need to move certain individuals from the areas being managed by the private and voluntary sectors back into the public sector. However, that will be built into the oversight provisions that are to be part of the outcome of these consultations.

On the question of a debate, it is a matter for the usual channels, but if the Government prove difficult to persuade, I am sure that my noble friend Lord Dholakia will be able to persuade the Liberal Democrats to give one of their debate days to such a discussion. One way or another, we will have a debate in this House on this matter.

Prisoners: Voting Rights

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

No, I do not think we have missed the boat already. In neither House have we pretended that this is an easy issue to deal with. If there was a consensus on what to do, we would have dealt with it quickly and early. However, we have conflicting views and we are taking this forward.

I agree with the noble Lord on one thing. I heard Mr David Davis in the other place say that what we do on this would be a precedent, and he is quite right. If the United Kingdom were to decide on a “pick-and-mix” attitude to the rulings of the court and the application of human rights, others would gleefully grab that example when we try to take them to task. I did not agree with the noble Baroness when she was rather dismissive of the progress we made in Brighton in reforming the court. I do not think that anybody has denied that the court needs reform and we made great progress there that is ongoing.

The most significant thing for me was the day after the declaration was signed when the Attorney-General hosted a tour de table where each of the responsible Ministers from the Council of Europe gave an explanation and a justification of how they were implementing the convention. Here was a Russian Minister—I know Russia is not perfect—explaining and justifying its stewardship of the ECHR. I am old enough to remember meetings with the old Soviet Union when any attempt to raise human rights was taken to be an interference in its internal affairs and could not be discussed. I consider it tremendous progress by the convention and by the Council of Europe.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I am very glad that we now have a framework but I am sorry that we are still embarked on the approach from the wrong way round, which is why the consultation has failed. The question should not be who should have the vote—that is what was laid down by the European court. The question is who should not have the vote. The consultation failed because it asked the wrong questions. I am concerned by that approach, although I am very glad to see that the Government are going to allow consideration of other options such as the one I have always advocated that the sentencer should award the removal of the right to vote at the time of sentence noted to a crime. I also note that there is still concern about costs. That a slight red herring. I have always understood that the costs are minimal because it will be postal voting which happens for all remand prisoners now anyway.

My concern and question relates to the current law passed by Parliament. As far as I understand it, the only law that affects voting is dated 1870. It condemns a person to prison as being a form of living death. That conflicts quite starkly with the Statement about rehabilitation revolutions which we have just heard from the Secretary of State. Is the law of 1870 still held to be applying or is there a new law at the back of this very sensible proposal? I look forward to helping the Select Committee when the time comes.

[Lord McNally]

I would have to take advice on whether the 1870 law is the only one. I presume that there have been successor electoral laws since then. However, I agree with the noble Lord that we now have a framework. Whether the wrong questions have been asked or in the wrong order, the committee once set up will have considerable leeway to set its own terms of reference. My right honourable friend in the other place made it clear that although the draft Bill gave a number of options that was not the full scope of where the committee could go or what the committee could examine. The Lord is quite right that mention of cost is a bit of scaremongering. It would be handled, I suspect, as postal votes. On the point mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, I remember a newspaper suggesting that in the Isle of Wight the seat could be swung by the block vote from Parkhurst. It is a reductio ad absurdum of the debate.

I am told that the law disqualifying prisoners from voting is now contained in the Representation of the People Act 1983. We have moved on 100 years and it is interesting that the Act is now nearly 30 years old.

There have been many red herrings in regard to the methodology of prisoner voting. I suspect that it would be done by postal votes, which would not be a tremendous burden on the administration of any elections. However, that is another matter on which the committee can take expert advice.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 13th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I was asked a direct question and I gave a direct answer. The victim surcharge will be in place, but it is not a fine. That is what the noble Lord asked and that is what I answered. Now I ask the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank all those who made such powerful contributions to this very interesting and wide-ranging debate. Although I say “wide-ranging”, there was no doubt in my mind that everyone was focused on the primary issue throughout, and covered various aspects of it.

The Minister mentioned that the public sought confidence in the system. Confidence comes from proof that things work. What worried me in all the contributions that were made was that they disclosed vast gaps in things being carried out that have been put to the public as being matters in which they can have confidence. Too much is not proven and not known at present.

I will ask the Minister two questions. First, when can I expect a reply to my letter of 4 October to the Secretary of State, asking for a meeting on this? I have not even had a reply. I would like a meeting because, like many noble Lords, I am functioning slightly in the dark. The Secretary of State is an éminence grise and it would be enormously helpful to find out from him exactly what he feels and thinks.

Secondly, I hope that between now and Report it may be possible to have a meeting and a briefing about this so that we can get to the bottom of some of the issues that have been raised. I do not think that this is an appropriate time to test the opinion of the House. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

National Offender Management Service: Indeterminate Sentences

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the role of the indeterminate sentence prisoners co-ordination group is not to prepare individual release plans. It is for the prisoner’s offender supervisor and offender manager to draw up a sentence plan to assess the prisoner’s risk factors and then to propose a risk management plan to the Parole Board once the prisoner has completed his tariff.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. The problem is that 6,500 prisoners are serving indeterminate sentences, with 3,500 over their tariff and 311 more than four years over it. The problem was put into sharp relief last week at an inquest in south Wales into the death of an indeterminate sentence prisoner who was a year over his tariff. Two weeks before he took his own life he was told at the prison to which he had just been moved that not only was the course that the Parole Board required him to complete before release not available in that prison, he was told that no such course would be available for two to three years. This problem needs to be tackled with urgency. Whether I have the name of the board right or not, I hope that the Minister will be able to assure the House that someone in NOMS is tackling individual problems with urgency.

[Lord McNally]

As I explained in my original reply, there is an individual case manager for each prisoner. However, I understand the noble Lord’s point. One of the original criticisms of this method of sentencing was that it created a Catch-22 whereby although you have to carry out a range of courses in order to make yourself available for parole and to convince the Parole Board that you are ready for release, those courses are not always available. Part of the reform programme that we have put in place, in parallel to the changes in the LASPO Act, is to try to make sure that prisoners are able to undertake reform training, and also to give the Parole Board greater flexibility in making its judgments on whether other aspects, rather than specific training programmes, can be taken into account in order to justify freedom. It is a difficult and delicate business. We are dealing with people who are in prison for serious offences and there must be a proper process to assess whether they should be allowed to go back into the community.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I expected that response. However, I remind the Minister that I have worked in Whitehall for many years. I do not disagree with him about Ministers being responsible; of course they are, but the question is how do they exercise that responsibility? They cannot do it on a 24 hour, seven days a week basis because they have many other things to do. Therefore, they need a structure to help them do it. The noble Lord referred to a command structure. You can call it what you like but it is a matter of people being responsible and accountable to a Minister for making certain that what the Minister wants to happen does happen. That happens everywhere—in schools, hospitals, businesses and the Armed Forces, but it does not seem to happen in the Prison Service.

I am very concerned about disseminating all responsibility down to the local level. I have said many times in this House that two things are involved in this. One is the question of what should be done, which is the central responsibility, but how it is done is the local responsibility. If you get that the wrong way round and nothing but “how?” comes out from the centre at the top and all the “what” is left down below in the local areas, you get confusion. People in the local areas need to know what they have to do. They should be allowed to disburse their resources locally as there will be different needs in different areas. That again seems to me common sense because unless you have a “what?” coming down, nobody knows where they are going. I have spoken to the chairman of the Youth Justice Board, and I understand that that body would be more than happy to tackle this measure. However, the chairman made the point that she did not want the youth offending teams involved in working with this age group. I accept that entirely. However, the success of the intensive schemes pioneered by the probation service shows that it is taking a keen interest in this group, and I see no reason to interrupt that. Therefore, it seems to me that the framework is there.

The Minister mentioned that a lot of things are going on but was not very specific. In the same spirit in which we have met to talk about many issues after Committee, can we meet to discuss this matter as it is far too important just to be left in the air at half past eight at night without, frankly, it being completely clear? I understand what he says about payment by results.

[Lord McNally]

I am very willing to meet. The noble Lord knows how much I value his experience, expertise and commitment in this area. I am happy to meet him to discuss this matter as often as he likes. However, later this week I will be sitting down with ministerial colleagues to discuss a detailed report on the various areas of MoJ business with the civil servants with direct line responsibility for them. We will have gone through policy areas and will be looking at various policy outcomes. The idea that somehow the National Offender Management Service is drifting somewhere outside ministerial control or accountability or that it is not being set various tasks and responsibilities is just not true.

On the other side, as has been acknowledged, we are dealing with very difficult and straitened times. The resources available to target this area are extremely limited. We shall see whether we can involve payment by results as one way of getting good results and resources into this area. We do not doubt the problem. I am very willing to continue to have discussions with the noble Lord, but I do not want to give him any false hope that we can go down this way in this Bill.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

I thank the Minister for that reply. In no way am I seeking to interfere; I am merely seeking to ensure that our commitment to this very important problem is properly recognised because we wish to share everything that he has shared with us that has come up from below to ensure that due account is given when we get an opportunity to do so.

I am not going to talk about payment by results because, as the Minister says, this is early days and the Government have set their sights on it; they have pilot schemes in place and we shall know more. It is premature to take more than that, other than to reflect concerns that are being reflected to me by people who have to operate it on the ground, particularly the small voluntary organisations which operate in this area and which are finding it enormously difficult to survive. In view of the fact that there is so much to play for in this area, it would be sensible to continue the dialogue. Therefore, I wish to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I have been wondering whether I dare quote poetry at this hour, but I think noble Lords deserve it. Whenever I hear the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who I am sure is with us spiritually, I am reminded of these lines from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

“Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire

To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,

Would not we shatter it to bits—and then

Re-mould it nearer to the Heart’s Desire!”

Certainly, as I have said before, there is no lack of sympathy with the promotion of the concept of rehabilitation. Indeed, as I have also said before, I believe that those who argue the case for rehabilitation are doing more for victims and more to reduce crime than those to whom the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred earlier today as the “throw away the key brigade”. There is no argument between us. The Ministry of Justice believes in rehabilitation, and a large range of our policies are geared to rehabilitation. However, I think most people will look beyond the Short Title of the Bill and judge the Government by their intentions and performance. As many noble Lords have recognised, the Bill contains key measures for the youth and adult criminal justice systems that will contribute to the rehabilitation of offenders. Therefore, although I would very much like to accept this amendment in many ways, I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is right—I must simply salute, get on with the job and urge him to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, like the Minister, I have to salute and move on. I am very glad for what he said about the essence of rehabilitation because that is hugely important. Even at this late hour, I make no apologies for moving the amendment because it is very important that all that has been said by many noble Lords during the passage of the Bill reflects the heart of what we are trying to do: namely, to secure the rehabilitation of those who end up in the criminal justice system. However, given the reassurance that everyone is trying to do all they can, and given the lateness of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendment for one simple reason: it drew attention to impact assessments, which are a very important part of legislation. I have mentioned in connection with other legislation that has come before the House that impact assessments in general are not well done. What has been said from around the House during this debate proves the point that in this Bill it does not appear that the impact assessments on all these aspects have been carried out sufficiently well to satisfy Members of the House that we are launching in a direction in which we ought to go.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, where am I to begin? It is probably best to begin with the unknown unknowns. Government can paralyse itself with inquiries and reports. Sometimes Ministers have to take decisions. As I said at the very beginning of the debate today, we had to take decisions against the background of a bleak economic situation. The brutal fact is that we were a whole lot poorer than we thought we were in 2008. That is the brutal fact and it means that bringing our public finances back into balance has required hard decisions. My department, with a £10 billion spend, has a commitment to cuts of £2 billion—not just to legal aid but to real people doing good jobs in the public service.

Sometimes when I listen to debates in this House, I think that there is no concept of the truth and consequences of what is happening. If not legal aid, where, who and what should be cut? We as a Government are willing to take responsibilities and will be tested by the outcome of our views. I am not sure that any inquiry would produce things that would settle all the arguments raised in the debate. We published a consultation paper more than a year ago, at the beginning of this process. We listened to the arguments put forward by a variety of bodies. The provisions on social welfare are not just a money-saving exercise. My right honourable friend was this morning referring more to the Jackson reforms in terms of expenditure on legal fees, and most people would agree that certain inflationary processes were caused by the reforms that the previous Government made.

We are trying to make a number of decisions. Perhaps I may say again—I think I have said this before in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Judd—that when the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, talks menacingly about people being driven to anti-social behaviour and criminality, I emphasise that people have a choice. I come from a background where people in real deprivation chose not to break the law. That should always be kept in mind, and no justification should bypass that.

As to the NAO, the Permanent Under-Secretary gave evidence to the Public Accounts Committee, in which he maintained that the MoJ had met government standards. Her Majesty’s Treasury has confirmed that carrying out the kind of study that was being proposed would be an extension of the NAO rule.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked when the Bill would come into effect. I will write if I am wrong, but I think that it is April 2013—in about a year’s time.

The amendment and the related Amendment 160 are unnecessary. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government already conduct impact assessments against a recognised standard that is determined by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and deployed consistently across all government departments. The scope of the impact assessments required under the BIS standard is, I acknowledge, narrower than that proposed in the amendment. However, setting aside the amendment’s references to groups with protected characteristics, to which I shall return in a moment, the impact assessments produced to date already touch on many of the areas that the amendment covers. However, the impact assessments necessarily quantify only costs and benefits where there is evidence that allows such quantification. Where quantification is not possible, the impact assessments consider the risk of given impacts materialising. Recognising that there are potential risks associated with making changes does not mean that such risks will be realised.

I have been disappointed with the way that the product of the analytical rigour that features in the published impact assessments, in considering every feasible risk, has been used in debate to paint a disingenuous doomsday scenario. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, claims that there is a theoretical risk of, for example, reduced social cohesion or criminality. However, that does not mean that the changes will automatically lead to such outcomes in the way that some have sought to present the assessment. Impact assessments allow policymakers to identify risks as a matter of good practice so that all possible eventualities are considered. Identification does not guarantee that such a risk will become a reality.

Turning now to equalities, the amendment also seeks a pre-commencement impact assessment on specified groups sharing characteristics that are protected under the Equality Act 2010. Public authorities are already under a public sector duty to have due regard to the impact of their policies on those protected groups. I have already invited noble Lords—and I do so again—to consider the equality impact assessment published alongside the Government’s response. This considers the potential impacts of the reforms on legal aid clients by race, gender, age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, religion or belief, and sexual orientation. This is more comprehensive than what is required by the amendment, and the equality impact assessment is open about the nature and extent of those potential impacts.

The existing statutory framework has due regard to equalities impacts. The fact that the ministry has had due regard to, and has published, its assessment of potential impacts suggests to me that what the amendment seeks in respect of equalities consideration is ill conceived. In respect of the assessment of wider social impacts sought by the amendment, it may well be that there are those in this House who have powers of foresight beyond mine, because this is almost certainly what would be required were any government department to be able meaningfully to deliver what these aspects of the amendment require.

Taking an emotive example, I ask this House carefully to consider if it is realistic, or even possible, to predict the expected impact of these reforms, or indeed any government policy, on something as complex as suicide. We have absolutely no reason to believe that there would be any relationship between these changes and the incidence of suicide. However, it would in any event be analytically impossible to predict such a relationship in a reliable way. The same tension exists regarding other impacts listed in the amendment that would undoubtedly have a multitude of complex causational factors. Ultimately, it is possible to identify only the risk of an impact, and the Government have been as comprehensive as possible in their assessment of those risks.

In respect of the types of advice organisations specified in the amendment, the equality impact assessment considers impacts on the not-for-profit sector, as well as solicitors and barristers. Of course, such analysis can describe only what the financial impacts are likely to be; the question of continued service provision will be dependent on a range of factors such as other funding streams, possible reorganisation of business structures, and diversification or contraction of services based on expertise. None of these can be either predicted or generalised across hundreds of offices.

Put simply, the amendment cannot achieve what it sets out to do. We are of course committed to assessing the true impact of the Bill, once it has materialised, as part of an established process of post-implementation review of legislation. The Ministry is working hard to improve its evidence base on legal aid clients and providers to get maximum benefit from the review process. In short, much of what the amendment seeks has already been addressed in the material published to date, and we are confident that we have measured that for which evidence is available. On the remaining aspects, it is possible only to identify risk, and we have done that in accordance with the Government’s accepted standards.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 15th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, in a debate. I can only say that if the initial speech she made was 19 years ago, she must have started very young. I am sorry that circumstances prevent the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, being with us but, as I have said before in this House, the Government—and I personally—have tried to continue the road map that she set out for the treatment of women prisoners.

I am not sure that I am going to be entirely helpful to the Committee this evening, partly because, although I was certainly very happy that the YJB survived, I sometimes get a little worried that this House becomes obsessed with the solution to a problem being a commission, a committee, a tsar or some structure outside the problem. I am old fashioned enough to believe that the report to Parliament should come from the Minister and that the Minister should have responsibility. I also profoundly disagree with the disdain that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, frequently shows for the capacity of public servants to carry out responsible roles.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

I—

[Lord McNally]

I knew that the noble Lord would get to his feet but it is true.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

I do not in any way disparage civil servants in what they are required to do. I simply point out that it is wrong to use civil servants for things that they are neither trained nor competent to do. That has been my concern all along. They have their place and I absolutely support them and welcome what they do in their own job.

[Lord McNally]

I am delighted to have that on the record. Their own job includes some of the issues that we are discussing tonight.

I go back to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Gould. I understand that my colleague—my noble friend Lady Northover—has visited the Brighton project to which the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, referred and that she firmly endorses the opinion that was expressed about its success. This point also goes back to the position and role of public servants—the people doing this tough job—and the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, gave some graphic illustrations. I was also pleased that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, mentioned that the people working in our Prison Service do an amazing job in difficult circumstances. Good care and support from staff saves many lives, and many such instances go unreported. In any given month, prisons successfully keep safe approximately 1,500 prisoners who are assessed to be at particular risk of suicide or self-harm.

When people say, “You don’t have a women’s strategy”, I dispute that. I think that we do and perhaps we should shout louder about it. As has been mentioned, my honourable friend Crispin Blunt in the other place is the Minister with responsibility in this area. On 24 January he made a speech to the Corston funders, setting out a report on progress in this area. He set out the Government’s strategy for women offenders, which ensures that women will benefit in key areas such as mental health, drug recovery, tackling violence against women, troubled families, employment and women’s community services, reflecting the good work by the National Offender Management Service to implement many of the recommendations in the Corston report.

In that context, I am afraid that we do not believe that the amendment seeking a published women’s strategy is necessary. We also believe that, as I said, accountability for a women’s strategy should remain with Ministers. Perhaps they are better placed to influence policy across Government and we will ensure that other departments play their part too in supporting vulnerable women in the criminal justice system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, briefly, I support the government amendments that have been tabled and echo the many warm things that have been said about the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for his persistence in pursuing this matter.

I merely mention that in 2001 I was invited to inspect the young offender institutions in the Caribbean. In Barbados, I found a system in which, at the age of 18, every child automatically had their convictions looked at and the slate wiped clean of all except those that it was deemed in a schedule should be carried forward. I brought that information back and fed it into the team studying Breaking the Circle at that time. Given all the points that have been made by the noble Lords, Lord Dholakia and Lord Thomas, it seemed particularly important that this should apply to young offenders so that they were not hampered, particularly in their further education, by crimes that they had committed as children.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, in introducing this series of amendments, I covered our responses to the questions. Perhaps I should repeat that politics is the art of the possible. My noble friend Lord Dholakia prayed in aid the 2002 report Breaking the Circle. The difference between that and this Government’s consultation, Breaking the Cycle, is that Breaking the Circle did nothing, while we brought in Breaking the Cycle through an amendment. I have tried to find out from my researchers whether it was the Labour Government of 1974 or Ted Heath’s Government, who went out of office that year, who brought in the original Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Perhaps that shows what has happened to the attitude towards penal reform in that it has taken 37 years to reform that Act. Successive Governments have ducked this issue. I am proud that this Government have taken the decision to amend that Act. We will monitor the effectiveness of the Act and the impact these changes have on offenders and their ability to secure employment.

As I said in my opening remarks, I have no objections to campaigners continuing to campaign but when a Government tackle an issue that has been ducked for 37 years, they are entitled to a little of the credit.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I do not think so, my Lords. I do not think that it would be sensible to go into such targetry. We are talking about individuals of whom individual assessments will be made. As I said, we are disarming a time bomb; we are looking at a backlog of, in many cases, extremely dangerous prisoners. Therefore, it is not just, as someone pointed out, a matter of throwing the gates open; this has to be a managed process. However, I hope that I have made it clear that that process is being managed—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham—and that we are trying to target resources to make sure that this is carried forward with due urgency.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

Is the group that the noble Lord mentioned making plans for every IPP prisoner or is it drawing up general plans for others to follow?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I support the amendment so eloquently introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. From what he said, I got the sense that it is really a probing amendment and that he did not expect to receive much support for it. However, he made such a powerful case that I hope the Minister might be swayed to think again about some of these points. As we have already heard in this Committee, it is obvious that many people enter prison without the capacity to read and write, let alone to hold down a job when they come out on release. Therefore, examples such as the Toe by Toe programme should be mandatory. Indeed, it is a pity that the amendment has not specified that it should be a requirement on the Secretary of State.

We have no objection at all to what is being proposed. Indeed, we would regard its prescriptive nature as being of benefit in the sense of tying down, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, what is required of prisoners—that they should have a full, purposeful and active day, and that every prisoner should undertake something instead of staying in their cells so as to at least become engaged and appreciate what is necessary in order to succeed outside prison. It would therefore also reduce the level of reoffending.

There are some good examples of work with prisoners having been done by private employers. National Grid had a project at Reading in which I was involved in an earlier life, and I thought it was absolutely exemplary. It provided what seemed to be the critical path forward for those due to leave custodial sentences in the sense that it provided them with housing, jobs and training. It started before the prisoners left in order to bring their reading and writing up to speed, and it allowed them to learn a skill—in this case, fitting—which meant that they were able to operate as soon as they left. As I understand it, that programme is still going. The recidivism rate was very small indeed, so the programme was certainly worthy in that regard. It also had the advantage of satisfying a need on the part of employers—they had realised that they were not getting an adequate supply of people to do the necessary jobs, and they found that this programme provided a ready supply.

Therefore, there can be a win-win in what the Government and private enterprise are looking for. Indeed, one might say that it could apply to charities and public bodies and not just to private companies. However, the essential point of the amendment is that, if it is decided that there will be employment from such activities in prisons, it should be done properly so that those who benefit from it have skills and qualifications that are nationally recognised, and it should be done in all cases so that we have a better outcome from the prison element.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I have had the opportunity to look at some organisations that have become involved in providing work for prisoners and, like him, I am impressed. It is encouraging that those who have taken the risk, as some may see it, of employing ex-prisoners, helping to train them, and doing work in prisons, find it a very fruitful experience.

Sometimes I think that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is a little hard on NOMS. I fully accept that it is obvious that the vast majority of the prison estate was not designed for operating work regimes. Many very competent prison governors and prison officers are not equipped to run businesses. That is a given, which makes the idea of work in prisons difficult but not impossible. One of the things that we have tried to do in the past 18 months is to tackle in a practical way the realities to which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, referred. Several hundred organisations already provide work and training opportunities inside prisons, but many are small and want to do more to attract business.

We aim to provide a competitive package for business. We will make involvement as straightforward as possible and get the commercial model right for both prisons and the private sector, subject to our paramount interest in ensuring security, in line with our legal obligations. NOMS is developing new structures and putting in place the right people to operate in a businesslike way. That includes the recruitment of a new chief executive for the prison industries team within NOMS and a business development manager who will have responsibility for finding new businesses and managing relations with customers.

We are trying to address some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and as of now around 9,000 prisoners are employed in prison industries, which my rough arithmetic makes it to be around 10 per cent, or perhaps just a little over of the prison population. It is clear that there is much to do, but there are great prizes if we can get this right. Clause 118 is central to our plan to achieve our aim to make prisons places of meaningful and productive work where prisoners make reparation. Ensuring that prisoners and those detained in young offender institutions or secure training centres have access to training and can obtain qualifications is important. The Government certainly recognise the importance of this area and agree with the intent behind the amendment.

Let me assure noble Lords that we are already doing much of what we aim to do. Through our desire to increase the amount of meaningful and productive work done in prisons, the Government will give many more offenders the chance to learn the discipline and skills of working. As study after study has shown, offending patterns diminish once employment has been found. However, it is not just through prison working that we aim to reduce reoffending. Experience of a proper working week will be augmented by ensuring that their work links them to the right opportunities to develop the skills necessary to their finding employment when they are released.

We plan to deliver learning bases on clusters of institutions that regularly transfer offenders between them. The learning and skills offer will focus on the needs of employers in the areas into which prisoners will be released, as well as on key issues, such as numerous, literacy and communication skills. Here again, I pay tribute to Toe by Toe, which is a marvellous way of tackling illiteracy—one of the problems that comes through time and again in offending. Decisions on the most appropriate learning and skills offer will be taken locally with the key aim of giving offenders the skills that they need to find and keep jobs and apprenticeships on release. There will be no one size fits all approach, nor should there be. Within this new framework we are retendering the offender learning and skills services—a process that gives the chance to look afresh at how to work with the best range of providers. As well as learning the necessary skills and having the right qualifications, many offenders have barriers to entering the labour market that must first be tackled.

As the Deputy Prime Minister announced in August 2011, from the summer of this year offenders leaving custody and claiming jobseeker’s allowance will have to engage with a work programme provider on release, who will be paid for getting them into work. As well as creating this “day one” service, we are bringing together the claiming of jobseeker’s allowance and the processing of benefits before release rather than after it, so prisoners should have a shorter wait for their first benefit payment, which will help their resettlement. In addition, any prison leaver who claims jobseeker’s allowance within 13 weeks of release will be mandated to the work programme from the point of claim. We will also test, in two work programme areas, the addition of a reducing reoffending payment as part of our payment by results approach, in which we will use a variety of methods in the pilot phase.

We recognise that equipping children under the school leaving age with the skills they will need to succeed in life is vital. There is already an expectation that they will be in education rather than paid work. The raising of the participation age will mean that from 2013 all young people, including those in custody, must continue in education or training until the age of 17, and until 18 from 2015. Young people in secure training centres and under-18 young offender institutions will have access to a full day of education and constructive activity. In secure training centres, young people participate in education or training for at least 25 hours per week. In the under-18 young offender institutions, each young person will receive at least 25 hours per week of education and other constructive activity.

We believe that the amendment is constructive but unnecessary. Section 47(1) of the Prison Act 1952 allows the Secretary of State to make rules concerning the regulation and management of prisons, young offender institutions and secure treatment centres, and the treatment of those required to be detained therein. Subsection (3) states:

“Rules … may provide for the training of particular classes of persons”.

Clause 118 will not change those aspects of the 1952 Act, which cover the same ground as Amendment 181A.

For adults detained in custody, the rule-making powers contained in the Prison Act are augmented by provisions in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, including a duty on the chief executive of Skills Funding to,

“secure the provision of reasonable facilities for education suitable to the requirements of persons who are subject to adult detention”,

and, in doing so, to take account of a range of factors such as facilities and equipment. In carrying out this duty, the chief executive must have regard to various matters, including the desirability of prisoners continuing the education or training that they have begun, and making the best use of resources.

I have listened often to—and have always welcomed—the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, championing the concept of making work, training and education a priority. They are the key to rehabilitation. I hope that what I have said has convinced him that, although we may not have achieved all that he desired, we are listening and trying as best we can to move in the direction that he advocates. For that reason, I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the care that he put into his response, and in particular for his closing remarks. I am also very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his words. As I said, the purpose of the amendment is to encourage something that I very strongly support. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure me that the business manager whom he said would be appointed will be a businessman and not a civil servant from NOMS. I do not decry civil servants who do civil servants' jobs, but we need a businessman in there, and I hope that one will be appointed.

I also hope that one of the first things that the business manager will do is carry out an inquiry with the people who currently provide work in prisons and allow them to tell him frankly of the frustrations and problems that they currently experience when trying to take work into prisons. The person concerned would find that very illuminating. If they take action on those frustrations, many of which I am very happy to pass on to the Minister because I have some censuses here, they would find it much more possible to deliver precisely what the Minister says he wants. If that happens—and, knowing the Minister, I am sure that it will—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

I will gladly draw that to the attention of DWP.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I was very glad that the night shift had started so that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, with her great experience of these issues, was here to contribute to the debate. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Kerr and to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for their contributions. They added value to the debate.

I am extremely grateful to the Minister, who demonstrated, as has been mentioned, that he understands the problem. Yet, in 1996 I first received an official pat on the head from an official in the Home Office who said, “Do not worry, we are talking to the Department of Employment about this”. Absolutely nothing has happened about it and that was more than 15 years ago. In the run up to putting my amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill, I questioned officials in the Department for Work and Pensions who were not aware of any people in the Ministry of Justice involved in such discussions. I am glad that that is happening. It would be sensible to bring this amendment back on Report so that the Minister can tell us precisely what has happened since that time. I know that the Department for Work and Pensions is poised and waiting. The suggestions that I made to the Minister were requests from that department that would help it to help the Ministry of Justice. Hoping that that will happen, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, Amendment 176ZZA deals with hate crime. Hate crime is abhorrent and the criminal justice system should be seen to treat it severely. We want to ensure that offenders should be in no doubt that they will face more serious penalties for this type of crime. The effect of this government amendment is to add “transgender identity” to Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provides for the sentence to be aggravated where the offender demonstrates hostility towards the victim on the basis of a specified personal characteristic. Currently, Section 146 applies to hostility based on the victim’s,

“sexual orientation (or presumed sexual orientation) … or … disability (or presumed disability)”.

Section 145 makes similar provision in relation to hostility based on the victim’s race or religion. In addition, the amendment adds references to transgender identity and disability to paragraph 5 of Schedule 21, so that murders aggravated on the basis of hostility towards the victim on those grounds will attract a 30-year starting point.

The amendments are straightforward but I should be clear that “transgender” is an umbrella term that includes, but is not restricted to, being transsexual. It will be for the courts to determine in individual cases whether or not the words or behaviour of the offender constitute hostility based on the victim’s transgender identity or presumed transgender identity.

The Government consider that all five monitored strands of hate crime should be treated equally under these particular provisions. This sends a strong message and should, I hope, give more confidence to victims in reporting these dreadful crimes. I beg to move.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, some of the saddest cases that I found in prisons when I was inspecting them were of people suffering from gender dysphoria, who were hoping to be able to change their gender while in prison. This imposed great difficulties on the prisons in which these people were because the facilities were not there to cope with them while they were going through that change. At the same time they faced considerable hostility; indeed, the hate crime that is mentioned in this amendment applies also to the attitude that other prisoners use towards these people in prison. If this is enacted as part of the Bill, will adjustments be made to prison regulations to allow action to be taken against those who show such hatred towards people suffering from gender dysphoria while in prison?

Prisoners: Transport

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I cannot confirm that they are armed on all occasions, but there is an assessment of risk for Category A prisoners. The use of guns in one of these escapes is extremely worrying, but it does not happen every time. That is another thing that the inquiry will look into and report back on.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned that the National Offender Management Service was conducting what I presume is an internal, in-house inquiry into this. Can he tell us whether the Inspectorate of Prisons and the inspectorate of the security industry are also looking into it? Presumably there are wider impacts other than those on the purely internal workings of the National Offender Management Service.

[Lord McNally]

Yes, the inquiry will go far wider. As I said, the wider review which is under way will look at both the public and the private sectors. The review’s aim is not just to hold an inquest into what happened but to learn lessons that will be helpful in the future.

Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to prevent prisoner escort vans delivering young offenders to Her Majesty’s Young Offender Institution Feltham after the contracted time of 7.30 pm.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the safe delivery of vulnerable young people is a priority, and we scrutinise contract reasons for any late arrivals. We monitor the contractors’ performance continuously and are working closely with them to address any concerns regarding late arrivals to Her Majesty’s Prison Feltham.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. This is not a new problem, although this present contractor started work only at the end of August. Over 10 years ago, when I went into the same problem, I discovered the reason was that, in order to save money, the contractor was using the drivers as court orderlies, and therefore they could not start delivering prisoners until after the courts had closed. This is actually a foul and was leading to considerable trouble. Can the Minister tell the House whether this practice is still going on and, if so, whether steps will be taken to stop it?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am not aware that that practice is still going on. However, I shall investigate the matter and write to the noble Lord. It is true that some late arrivals are due to the fact that courts can sit until eight o’clock and travel time often depends on the traffic. Between the end of a case and departure from the court, post-court reports have to be prepared at the sentencing court by the YOT concerned and this can also cause some delay. However, with regard to the point that the noble Lord raises, I shall simply have to investigate.

Prisons: HMP Wandsworth

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, my noble friend asked me what my reaction was. I was appalled. It is a disgraceful and shaming report that lists many failings. I can say only that the National Offender Management Service has reacted to the faults with proper determination. Wandsworth is a very difficult prison. It is one of our Victorian prisons, with over 1,600 prisoners, which puts a great strain on the staff, but there is no doubt that the inspection revealed many weaknesses. All I can assure my noble friend is that the strengthening of the management team signals a determination that the things that were identified will be put right.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, when I was the Chief Inspector of Prisons I also had the problem of inspecting Wandsworth and producing a report very similar to the one that has been mentioned. We introduced a procedure whereby the Prison Service was required to produce an action plan on what it was going to do, which was copied to the Secretary of State and the chief inspector and was then updated after nine months and 18 months. That report listed who was to do what, and by when, to put the recommendations right. The Minister has listed some things that have happened. Can he tell the House whether that action plan procedure is still in force and, if so, whether one has been instigated for HMP Wandsworth?

[Lord McNally]

I am not quite sure whether the system that the noble Lord refers to is still in action, but I know that Amy Rees, the new governor, has the clear direction to move with all possible speed to implement the action plan. It would be inconceivable if the Secretary of State and Ministers in the Ministry of Justice did not pay the closest attention to making sure that the recommendations made by this report are implemented with all possible speed.

Prisoners: Sanitation

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to speed up the ending of “slopping out” in prisons in England and Wales.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the use of slopping out as the primary method of prisoner sanitation ended in 1996. Currently, less than 3 per cent of the prison population are required to use unacceptable alternatives to in-cell sanitation. All new build has in-cell sanitation and, in some cases, in-cell showering facilities.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. In September 1991, the then Home Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, assured everyone, at paragraph 6.8 of his White Paper Custody, Care and Justice, that,

“no prisoner will have to endure the inhumane and degrading practice of slopping out after the end of 1994”.

The announcement made by the Prisons Minister Ann Widdecombe in 1996, which the Minister quoted, was premature because there have been, and are, cases of slopping out. The Scottish Prisons Service has admitted that the practice breaches human rights. Recently, the Scottish Court of Session has agreed that prisoners can sue for damages for being made to slop out. Might the prospect of literally thousands of British prisoners taking the same route encourage the Government to fulfil the assurance given 20 years ago that slopping out would end 15 years ago?

[Lord McNally]

No, my Lords. The figures I have given are accurate: less than 3 per cent of prisoners have facilities that do not comprise in-cell sanitation. The main alternative is electronic unlocking, which is not a perfect system but is certainly not degrading in the terms that the noble Lord suggested. As far as we are concerned, it is compliant with humanitarian and human rights legislation. The truth is that we have a prison estate in which it is extremely difficult to meet the full commitment to in-cell sanitation. Therefore, I cannot be enthusiastic at present about promising a rapid reduction in the numbers. As I say, as new build comes on stream, there will be more in-cell sanitation, but that will not happen quickly. We are down to almost an irreducible minimum whereby electronic unlocking is the alternative to in-cell sanitation.

Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of the recommendations of the public inquiry into the murder of Zahid Mubarek in HM Young Offender Institution Feltham, published on 29 June 2006, remain unimplemented.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the National Offender Management Service has fully implemented 71 of the 88 recommendations made in the report of the Zahid Mubarek inquiry. Two recommendations were rejected at the time of the publication of the report. The remaining 15 recommendations were either partially implemented or have become obsolete as a result of other developments.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Nineteen year-old Zahid Mubarek was murdered in March 2000 by a known racist psychopath with whom he had been paired in a cell by prison staff. Three and a half years later, your Lordships took the unprecedented step of directing that there should be a public inquiry into the murder, resisted until then by successive Home Secretaries. Its report was published five years ago today, following which, for two years or so, the Home Office convened regular meetings with the Mubarek family to update them on the processing of the 88 recommendations. These meetings have ceased. To demonstrate to the family and to others who are interested that improving the treatment of and conditions for black and ethnic-minority prisoners remains on the agenda, I ask the Minister if he would be kind enough to publish not only the details of how many recommendations have not been implemented but also what action, or inaction, has been taken on each one of them.

Prisons: OPCAT

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they propose to take in response to the recommendation on gaps in the national preventive mechanism made in the first annual report of the United Kingdom’s Preventive Mechanism under the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Government welcome this report and are studying its recommendations carefully. MoJ officials are in discussion with Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons, Her Majesty’s Courts Service and the Provost Marshal—Army—to look at any ways of closing gaps that have been identified.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am very glad to see that there is a report because while this protocol was signed in December 2003, it was not until March 2009 that the national preventive mechanism was set up. It has an extremely important role, not just in prisons but with immigration detainees. The coalition, as noble Lords will know, has 18 members, but what is worrying them all is that in addition to the gaps that have been identified, about which the Minister spoke, there is a problem of resources. They have to resource those extra inspections from their own budgets. Can the Minister assure the House that cuts will not affect the operation of this protocol?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the Government are committed to the operation of this protocol. All the bodies covering it have had to take their share of cuts, but they should keep in mind the overall commitment to honour the protocol when they apply those cuts.

Prisoner Transfer Agreements

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, when discussing this matter with some overseas territories from where foreign nationals have come, there has always been a sticking point over the length of sentence and the length of time that people might be expected to serve. If people go back from this country, there has been a fear that they might be released before the end of the sentence awarded by our courts. The key part of the sentence that we are talking about is at the end, when people are appropriately resettled into their country of origin. Can the Minister confirm that it is the resettlement end of the sentence which will be the subject of the discussions in the review that he mentioned?

[Lord McNally]

On this particular matter, no; we are looking at the broad issue. However, it is interesting that the noble Lord should say we are concerned that we send back to their country of origin prisoners who may then be given an easier sentence than the one imposed by our courts. Perhaps I may suggest that that precisely may be the concerns of countries that send our prisoners back. Countries have a right to their own system of justice, and some of them take matters such as drug offences very seriously indeed. When you are resident in those countries, you should be aware of the seriousness with which they view such offences.

Prisoners: Diet

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I do think that it was wrong to get rid of the prison farms. One thing that we are looking at as part of making prison terms working terms is looking again at the idea of prisoners doing farm work. I think that it would be a very good thing to return to.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I declare an interest as vice-chairman of Natural Justice, an organisation which in 1997 conducted a random double-blind trial in the young offender establishment in Aylesbury, proving that, given the right mixture of vitamins, minerals and fatty acids, offending and antisocial behaviour came down by 40 per cent. We are currently conducting a second trial. Can the Minister assure me that the second trial will be given a more favourable reception than the previous one, after which it took 11 years to convince government that replication was sensible?

Youth Justice Board

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, in many ways, the YJB is a success story. In the late 1990s, youth services were Cinderella organisations but they are also mainly the responsibility of local authorities. We are ensuring that the system is decentralised and devolved in a positive way. In the past few years, there has been a very successful move away from putting young people into custody and towards using other methods, which has brought about the reduction. We will continue to encourage and follow this process.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I was the Chief Inspector of Prisons when the Youth Justice Board was introduced. I entirely agree with the Minister that the board has been a success story. One of the very telling things that occurred was that, at last, a named person was responsible and accountable for looking after these people—and that told. Can the Minister say whether, when the arrangements are changed, there will be someone in the system who is responsible and accountable for young people?

[Lord McNally]

Most certainly so. I have made it very clear that the Ministry of Justice is taking on the responsibility for continuing a success story. Therefore, what is put in place to carry forward these responsibilities must maintain that very clear and distinct responsibility for the service. I assure noble Lords that the new system will reflect that kind of structure.

Prisoners: Voting

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Monday 18th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to comply with the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights on the voting rights of prisoners.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Government have been actively considering the issue over the summer and this work is continuing.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I understand that responsibility for the issue has now been passed to the Deputy Prime Minister, who announced that action was being taken. When I last asked this question in June, the Minister told the House that we would receive an answer in October. I gather that has now been deferred until December. I dread to think what would happen in this country if anyone who was made the subject of a court order did nothing about it for six years—the time that has passed since this order was made, and it has been five years since the appeal. Can the Minister assure the House that intentions are being carried out to enable those prisoners who will be allowed the vote to vote in the elections next May?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, that is a trick question because it assumes that a decision has been made about the vote being granted to prisoners. I have said that the Government have been actively considering the issue over the summer. It is only five months—not five years—since this Government came into office. We are looking at the situation and will make a report to the European Council of Ministers, as we promised over the summer, at its meeting on 30 November.

Prisons: In-cell Sanitation

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the finding of the report of the National Council for Independent Monitoring Boards that in some prison establishments the lack of in-cell sanitation means that slopping-out, officially ended in 1996, still continues.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, slopping-out should not occur in the 21st century. However, it is simply not possible to install in-cell sanitation in all parts of the accommodation at certain prisons and electronic unlocking is the best option for the provision of sanitation.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply but, as he knows, today 20,000 prisoners may have to defecate into a bucket, which will remain with them in their cell until they are let out from that cell. The electronic system, which was used as the justification for saying that the process had ended, does not work all the time—indeed, it is switched off during the day—and too many prisoners spend all day locked up in their cells. Can the Minister assure the House that something will be done to improve this disgraceful and uncivilised situation and will he undertake to report back to the House at regular intervals as to what improvements are being made?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I do not recognise the figure of 20,000—or was it 2,000? I thought that the noble Lord said 20,000.

Crime: Youth Crime and Antisocial Behaviour Commission

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Monday 19th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will respond to the Independent Commission on Youth Crime and Antisocial Behaviour.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Government will consider the report in the context of our review of anti-social behaviour and the tools used to tackle it, as well as the comprehensive assessment of sentencing policy now under way.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sure he is aware that many of us who take a keen interest in the administration of the criminal justice system have been much encouraged by the intent announced by the Secretary of State for Justice in his rehabilitation agenda. One of the areas that gives us greatest concern is dealing with youth crime and anti-social behaviour. One of the tragedies of recent years is that there have been many reports and many recommendations on this, too many of which I fear are gathering dust on the shelves of the Ministry of Justice. Can the Minister assure the House that this excellent report drawn up by a glittering cast, containing many prescient and far-sighted analyses and recommendations, will be included in the Green Paper, which is shortly to come before us?

[Lord McNally]

I share all the descriptions of the report that the noble Lord used. It has come at an extremely opportune moment. I cannot guarantee that every last recommendation will be in it but, as he said, it comes from a very good stable. I think that, in drawing up the Green Paper and carrying the debate forward, it will be reflected in many of the things that we want to say.

Prisoners: Voting

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord McNally

Wednesday 9th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, my senior colleagues in government are considering this matter. All that I can do is to guarantee that the expertise and experience in this House will be transferred to those colleagues.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I suspect that one of the reasons the previous Government took so long to come to no decision was that they were asking themselves, and indeed asking the public through the consultative process, the wrong question. The European Court of Human Rights laid down that every sentenced prisoner had the right to vote. Therefore the question is not who has the right to vote but who does not. In France and Germany, that is decided in court at the time of sentence by the judge according to the crime. Is that approach going to be tried in the fresh look, rather than continuing the sterile one that produced no answer?

[Lord McNally]

I am well aware that that is one consideration before Ministers at the moment, but it is one of a wide variety of considerations.