Armed Forces Bill

Lord Ramsbotham Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I declare that I am a trustee of the Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League. The noble Lord, Lord Astor of Hever, was also in that position and did outstanding work for the league.

I am so glad that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, has raised this subject. I must tell him that I find the essence of his argument good but the proposed composition of the future committee less good. The moment we bring politicians—I include Members of your Lordships’ House—into a matter such as this, we are on fairly dangerous ground. Therefore, although I take the thrust of the points made by the noble Lord, I am not happy with the composition of the future committee that he has put forward.

When the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, talked of medals, I was not sure whether that included decorations. I feel that the whole of this subject should be within the Ministry of Defence; it is its problem and its right to award gallantry awards, campaign medals and anything else that it feels entitled to award. I am arguing that the present committee, for all the good reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, gave, occasionally gives Her Majesty the wrong advice. I have said so within the MoD at a couple of meetings.

The argument that you do not get two medals for one campaign is fallacious. The Korean medal is cited in that, and I should declare that I have two medals for fighting in Korea. The war in Korea was a United Nations war, fought by 21 nations. It was not just a British war. Therefore, those from the 21 nations that took part got a United Nations medal. If Britain or one of the other 20 nations wants to give a national medal as well, that is up to them. Her Majesty’s Government saw fit to give such a medal to the Armed Forces of Britain who fought in Korea. I was in South Korea a few months ago and talked to the President, who sees the war in Korea as a United Nations war. That is what is taught to children in school: 21 nations saved them from communist domination. Therefore, the argument that you do not get two medals for one campaign is not on.

The Malaysian medal was given by the Agong—the King—and the Government of Malaysia with a great deal of charitable love and respect for what Great Britain did over 11 years in Malaya. I declare that I was also given that medal. Some of the Armed Forces of our Crown served, on and off, on more than one tour. The Gurkha brigade that spent 15 years there on constant operations got one bar on a General Service Medal. Specialised forces spent 10 or 11 years there. Others kept coming and going. The way in which medals are given today, marvellous as it is, means that these people who had given great dedicated service got only one medal. It is a great shame that the advice given to Her Majesty was such that this medal cannot be worn. There were of course many doing their national service serving in Malaya at that time, and they too are entitled to this medal.

I take the noble and gallant Lord’s amendment as being the answer to this. I say to the Minister that the MoD ought to go back and have a very good think. Maybe its own committee should meet a bit more often and get on and modernise itself. It ought to stand by the Commonwealth. For that reason, I hope that the Minister will not say that it is unnecessary and we should not be allowed this Malaysian medal. I hope that the Ministry will think again and that it will take the noble and gallant Lord’s amendment as fully voted on by most of us.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I too rise to support the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, in what he has said and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for suggesting that it is high time that the committee, whose rules I gather go back to 1886—some of them indeed to 1854—considers revising them.

Like the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, I declare that I have the Pingat Jasa Malaysia. As I am not allowed to wear it, I have actually brought it with me because it is important that those who have not seen it read the declaration that is on the lid. I wonder whether that was made available to either Her Majesty the Queen or those who had to make this decision. It reads:

“This medal is awarded to the peacekeeping groups amongst the communion countries for distinguished chivalry, gallantry, sacrifice or loyalty”—

that is a word that I would like people to pay attention to—

“in upholding Peninsular of Malaysia or Malaysia sovereignty during the period of emergency and confrontation”.

The word “loyalty” rings loudly through this, which is why I particularly welcome the word “Commonwealth” in the noble and gallant Lord’s amendment. I say to the Minister that recently I have heard both the Foreign Secretary and the Minister responsible for the Commonwealth say that one of the aims of this Government is to put the C back in the FCO. Where better to show loyalty to the Commonwealth, when it has responded in this way, than by allowing the wearing of this medal? It would be ridiculous if I went in uniform with Her Majesty the Queen to the Commonwealth conference in Perth and was allowed to wear the PJM, but had to take it off when I came back here. That is silly.

Of all the arguments that I have heard, the idea of five years is stupid, because this is a decision that Malaysia took. In the same spirit as the United Nations rewarded all the people in Korea, this was awarded to all those who helped Malaysia. To say that we do not accept it because it was five years after we had stopped being there is both discourteous and unchivalrous.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 27 in my name I thank the noble Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble and gallant Lord Craig, for their remarks, and the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, for the reminiscences that put all this into context—that is, in this country we do not treat veterans with the same respect and regard as our friends across the Atlantic in the United States do. There, the veterans are a strong body and fight for their corner. Here, I often feel that veterans need to have their corner fought by people such as us in the Moses Room. It worries me that over the past 60 years, many thousands of veterans believe that the service that they have given has not been appreciated. The purpose of my amendment is to institute a national defence medal. The cost of such a medal has been calculated as £2.50 per medal. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that that includes its box. There is an estimate of 4 million people who could apply, but that of those only two-thirds would apply.

What is the medal for? So many of our service people have given their lives or served time in situations such as the Berlin airlift, Northern Ireland, Korea and all the places that the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, mentioned—I shall not try to repeat them all. There have been 58 petitions on the Ministry of Defence website, of which the request for the institution of a national defence medal came top, which shows that there is a demand for it. I was not old enough to serve in the forces—I just missed national service—but my late father had medals from the Second World War, which I treasure. His elder brother died in the First World War.

The idea of medals not only for the veterans but for their dependants is very important, which is why I support all the comments made in the debate. A question was raised earlier about who should be on the committee at the Ministry of Defence. A committee at the MoD has been considering these matters, but veterans tell me that they feel that the process has not been transparent. There has been a feeling that it has been put into a box somewhere without anyone wanting to deal with it. That is despite the fact that leaders of two or three political parties have said that they are in favour of a national defence medal.

Should we not take the matter out of the box of the Ministry of Defence, bring it into the open and let the veterans contribute their views—there are many veterans’ organisations—and make a decision on the national defence medal which is understood and accepted by everyone? At the moment, the feeling is that it is being ignored. That is not fair to our veterans.

Why are the Government not prepared to recognise the service to the nation by the award of a medal to all those who have served? I find that strange. We spoke on previous amendments about housing and the covenant. There is a feeling that a national defence medal would recognise all those people who have been ignored. The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, said that some people have one medal; but some people have a number of medals. So some people will have one extra medal, but many people have no medals at all, and they include officers in the RAF involved in the Berlin airlift, who did not receive medals because they were not given to officers at the time.

I hope that the Minister will listen to what not only I but other noble Lords have said and have a rethink on medals with a positive outcome.