Customs Safety and Security Procedures (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, to give a degree of context about the scale of smuggling into the United Kingdom, the Government’s most recent figures, from August 2019, suggest that there was lost revenue to the United Kingdom of £2.5 billion in smuggled tobacco alone. To put it into further context, HMRC estimates that lost duty on smuggled tobacco represents 14% of all duties. For alcohol, HMRC considers 8% of all duty revenues being lost through smuggling and crime.

How does this happen? It is because of the context that the Minister described—this is my first opportunity to interact with him, so I welcome him to his position. As he said, these measures and security checks have been there for a purpose. Yes, we have seen progress in the form of a reduction, but the figures are still stark. Any one of us during the short debate on this statutory instrument could do a quick news check: “HMRC”, “crime”, “smuggling”. With the checks, mechanisms and security procedures uniform and in place across the European Union, the Government take credit for the reduction in organised crime. Parts of our national security strategy are contingent on eradicating organised crime from the Balkans and thereby smuggling into the United Kingdom. I sit on the International Relations Select Committee. During our inquiry last year on the Balkans, we were told by the Government that their top priority in respect of the Balkans was smuggling into the United Kingdom from organised crime. It was therefore no surprise that when this issue was debated in March there was considerable disquiet that a waiver for a year would, in effect, put in place a new regime. That was debated in March and those concerns were highlighted, so it is almost breathtaking that this is considered an urgent matter. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said in the previous debates on statutory instruments, it is urgent only because the Government have not acted earlier, and we may be in a position of crashing out of the European Union. The terminology of urgency in relation to bringing forward this measure is not a result of our not being unaware of these issues, it is just that the Government and HMRC do not have mechanisms in place.

The Minister said that there would be a transition period for businesses which were not prepared, but what have the Government been doing over the past seven months in order that there is heightened preparedness? In all our debates in this House since March on what the Government claimed was no-deal planning, they have spoken of heightened preparedness. We saw most recently that HMRC had to auto-enrol businesses to have an economic operator registration number; now there is a waiver for security procedures. What proportion of trade in goods into the United Kingdom will this measure cover? Have the Government prepared an impact assessment with regard to law and order and our strategies for reducing organised crime? If the Minister were able to highlight where that is, it would be helpful. I was not able to find it, so it would be helpful to know whether the Government have prepared such an assessment. The Government’s own Explanatory Memorandum states:

“This instrument will be covered by an overarching HMRC impact assessment”.


It then gives a link. I looked at the link, but I could not see anything relating to this instrument, so it would be helpful if the Minister were able to state what the position is.

The Minister’s terminology was interesting. He referred to the measure being “transitional”, but if you have a transition you start from the status quo until a new mechanism is in place. This is the new mechanism; a waiver is a new mechanism. It is not a case of the status quo carrying on until there was some form of agreement with the European Union as to what the procedures would be for imports from the European Union, because that would be covered if we had a withdrawal agreement. If we do not have one, this is not a transition—it is a new system that may well last for 12 months, as the Minister said. Can the Minister give clarity on that? He said that this is for 12 months, but Regulation 3(3) suggests that there could be,

“different extensions for different exporters, goods, places or means of transport, or any combination of these”,

if a further public notice is provided. I may have misread the measure, but it would be helpful to know where the restriction of it being only for a year is: that is a genuine question.

The Minister referred to one element of the declarations being waived for empty containers. How will we know if they are empty? If no declarations are required, what is the distinction between an empty container and a full one? How will our authorities be able to know? The Minister is suggesting that there would be no checks, on any grounds whatever, on any containers coming across the Northern Ireland border. I remind the Minister that, according to Northern Ireland government figures, there were 46 million transport crossings at 15 points on the Northern Ireland-Ireland border last year. What mechanisms are in place to ensure that none of the containers that cross the border will have any kind of determination for their security, at destination or source? Not only would there be no checks, there would be a waiver at source and on receipt at the destination. What will that mechanism look like? Nothing that the Minister said today gives clarity on what that would be and how it would cover many elements of 46 million vehicle crossings. There is also little in the revised Northern Ireland protocol. It is of concern that the Government did not do specific impact assessments.

One element raised by the business community in March, in relation to the other measure to which the Minister referred, was the reciprocal nature of this. Can the Minister confirm that this is indeed part of a reciprocal agreement with the European Union? If there are to be no mechanisms and if this is a unilateral waiver—which would, I suspect, have to be applied to all other countries under WTO rules—it opens up the European Union market via Northern Ireland. If the Minister can clarify that this is part of a reciprocal arrangement, some in the business community may be slightly eased. If not, there are considerable difficulties in having a unilateral system and none of the benefits referred to by the Minister will apply. Presumably, they will apply only to those wishing to export to the United Kingdom—our economic competitors—rather than the British businesses which wish to export from the United Kingdom. Given that the Government have been very coy in giving information about how many British businesses have registered with their destination countries for an EORI number, it would be helpful to know about the reciprocity of this too.

Finally, 40% by value of UK imports and exports are from air freight. How will this mechanism apply to the European aviation single market, which we are also leaving, and the interaction between the security procedures and checks that many businesses have had to comply with? Given that, as the Minister indicated, this should be in place if there is no deal, what response have the Government had from the air freight industry?

In many respects, these are very concerning measures. As the Government say, they could last 12 months but potentially longer and are, potentially, unilateral rather than reciprocal. They potentially open up many areas of abuse, especially on the United Kingdom’s land border with the European Union. As the Minister indicated at the outset, this mechanism does not apply to goods between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. What mechanisms will? I hope that the Minister is able to respond to these points.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I echo the comments that have been made welcoming my noble friend to the Front Bench. I support the regulations that we are discussing today but I have some questions; I hope my noble friend can reassure me.

If we have a no deal, the culture at the ports and on the border in Ireland could change. Other member states may be less concerned about what is sent to us in the UK than they have been in the past. I note that there will be a 12-month period when no safety and security declarations will be required. That is probably sensible, to keep the lorries rolling, but, to put it simply, we in this House need to understand what will happen with the enforcement of important laws at the ports and on the border. How will we stop the import of illegal migrants, dangerous knives, machine guns and cocaine—all the things that the Home Office, very sensibly, tries to keep out—let alone illegal cultural works, exotic plants and animals that are prohibited from coming into the UK? What will happen at the ports and on the Irish border? Can the House have some reassurance about how these laws will be enforced in the transitional period and in the longer term?

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 6th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for a useful meeting, and for responding to my amendment in Committee and to the concern that was expressed on all sides about the need to monitor and review trade agreements. I support this proposed new clause. Good government requires objective review in the light of performance and the priorities of the day. Regulations are reviewed every five years in many areas.

I have tabled the amendment to establish two points. First, I wanted my noble friend to explain why she felt we could not include my simple proposal that the Secretary of State should arrange for the report to be laid before the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly. Can she agree that this will be done? Secondly, the review clause applies only to trade agreements ratified before exit day. I am also interested in having such provisions apply in the case of new agreements made after Brexit. Can the Minister outline her intentions on this point? We are entering a period of profound change, where a habit of looking back critically would be both desirable and helpful. I beg to move.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, in Committee there were a number of amendments, including one in my name, which sought to make the case that some of the agreements that we are party to by virtue of our membership of the EU are significant for the economy as a whole and certain sectors of the economy. Some have a greater impact on some of the nations and regions of the UK and, therefore, to understand the impact of our trading policy it is necessary to have the report. So I welcome the Government’s position, as outlined by the Minister.

However, there are a couple of areas where I would wish to press for further information. One area relates to comments I made earlier about the status of the vast majority of the agreements to which we are party and have signed prior to exit day but which we are looking to replicate or agree after exit day. These will not necessarily be considered as continuity agreements—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe.

The agreement with Japan is a good example. It has been in force since 1 February and, given all the powers under this Bill, is a candidate to be considered as a continuity agreement. The Japanese Government have said that they do not wish it to be a continuity agreement but a new trade agreement. Under the Government’s amendment, how would that be reported on? It would not come under its remit. That is one of many examples.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I wish to make two brief points in this large but important grouping. The first is in response to the point made by the noble Baroness and my noble friend Lord Fox. When the Secretary of State spoke at Second Reading of this Bill in the other place, he indicated that the Government’s position on the anti-dumping remedies regime would be public long before we considered this Bill. We are, to some extent, debating blind in not knowing what the Government’s proposals are. That is regrettable, so if the Minister can give some clarification, that would be very helpful.

The second point is really stimulated by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley: why are the Government continuing with Schedule 4 as it is currently drafted? As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, the proposal would have been that the Secretary of State would appoint the chair of the TRA and then the chair would appoint the chief executive —that is in Schedule 4(2)(1)(a) and Schedule 4(2)(1)(c). If no chair had been appointed, the Secretary of State would appoint. In the Government’s Statement on 26 October, they announced the appointment of both the chair designate and the chief executive designate at the same time. I do not know how that interacts with this legislation, and on what basis the chief executive designate was appointed. I am not questioning those two individuals. If the intention was to have a truly independent body, the fact that the first chair had been the UK Trade & Investment representative raises some questions. I am not questioning the quality of the appointments. However, I am not sure how the fact that the announcement of both appointments was made on the same day interacts with the Bill, and on what basis both the chair and the chief executive were appointed as designate at the same time. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said, either that is not consistent with the Bill, so the Government acted beyond how they said they would act, or perhaps we should just delete this aspect in its entirety for the sake of neatness.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

On Amendment 101A, I agree with proposed new subsection 1(c), where you have,

“a chief executive appointed by the Chair with the approval of the Secretary of State or, if the first Chair has not been appointed, by the Secretary of State”.

The latter has already happened, so, as the noble Lord said, that becomes redundant. However, I am not convinced that all the executive members should be appointed by the chair without reference to Ministers. I have been involved in lots of appointments in different bodies over time, and the fact of the matter is that normally appointments are put forward and are approved ministerially, and this helps make the appointments sensible, enduring and independent.

For the same reason, I do not agree with the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, that we should require representatives of different groups. I can see exactly what she is trying to achieve, which is to have good, sensible people who would care about economics, people and devolved Administrations. However, my own experience is that if you restrain yourself in this way, you find that you are looking for somebody who has to be in a specific category, maybe there is nobody of quality at that time—especially as the pay rates in quangos are quite low compared with other opportunities for these people—and you get yourself into difficulty. I would favour simplicity, and independence achieved by having a separate agency, whatever my views may be on that.