Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Lords Chamber

I end on a personal note. I have been involved with matters of national security for many years, since I first became chairman of the Security Commission 25 years ago. I am therefore familiar with the sort of considerations which actuate Governments in these matters, but I cannot think of a single good reason why this order under Clause 2 should not be made by the court. If it is extremely urgent, then the order will be made ex parte by the judge and issued in the ordinary way pending the full hearing under Clause 9. I simply cannot see the difficulty in that. I cannot see the advantage of the order being made by the Secretary of State but I can see many disadvantages. I beg to move.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am sorry that I did not give the noble and learned Lord leave of this question. I am entirely in sympathy with what he said in moving the amendment, but can he tell the House what happens if, as his amendment says, the court rather than the Secretary of State may,

“impose specified terrorism prevention and investigation measures”,

and if the court has to consider whether conditions A to C are met? Condition A reads that,

“the Secretary of State reasonably believes that the individual is, or has been, involved in terrorism-related activity”.

Does that then mean that the court has to make the order, but it has to consider whether the Secretary of State reasonably believes—or should there ideally be a removal of “Secretary of State” in Clause 3(1) and replacement by “the court”? I hope that I have made myself reasonably clear.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

The noble Lord has been very clear. I fully understand—and that is exactly what is provided in a subsequent amendment. I think that it is Amendment 3. You have to read Amendment 1 with an amendment that strikes out the words,

“the Secretary of State reasonably believes”,

in Clause 3(1). So it does tie up.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I could not see the amendment that did that.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I think that it is Amendment 3.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. I want to thank the most reverend Primate for his remarks. It would be very easy for this to become a debate in which lawyers hold the floor, but it should not be, because this is so fundamental to who we are and what our system is here in Britain. We are talking about the rule of law and about liberty and the protections we provide for it.

I wanted to pick up what my noble friend Lady Hayman said when she answered the question: what is so special about judges? Her answer was that they are not politicians. It is more than that. Our judiciary is independent. We spend time—I certainly do—speaking to lawyers and judges in other jurisdictions about what the meaning of an independent judiciary really is, and how it protects our politics. As the most reverend Primate has said, it is a protection for the politicians and for our polity that we hand over issues to do with something as precious as liberty to judges—even in these exceptional circumstances—because that way we are adding weight to the importance of liberty’s meaning in all of our lives.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I support strongly the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, which has been indirectly referred to by the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Hayman, and by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven. I hope that my noble friend will take full account of the political importance of this group of amendments. The psychology of extremism feeds on a sense of unfairness and oppression. The law as it stands, and indeed as it is improved in the Bill, will inadvertently provide to those who already feel hard done by, or the subject of extreme unfairness, a spur to yet further, potentially terrorist, activities. That will be the case if an important decision of this nature— which has, as other noble Lords have said, extreme repercussions—is not the decision of an independent judge but that of a politician. However good the politician is, the person who may be converted to extremism will view that politician as an agent of politics and not as an agent of justice. For that reason, among many others, I urge my noble friend to adopt these amendments.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, on the grounds that have already been spoken of, but also on the very pragmatic grounds that, every time we as a country step beyond the normal bounds of the rule of law, or contemplate extra-judicial measures, or contemplate allowing the Executive to have powers in this area, we risk alienating young men and women who may be wavering around, or contemplating being drawn into, terrorism. We create war stories and martyrdom. Even though these are small in number, they can be used to recruit vulnerable young people into supporting or contemplating terrorism.

History tells us that every time Governments—here or abroad—have contemplated extra-judicial executive powers, in the long term those powers have tended to work against us. I understand the reasons why Governments want to maintain public confidence by being and appearing to be very tough on terrorism, and the pragmatism of police forces and intelligence services which want the widest battery of powers to be available to them immediately as they contemplate their response to terrorism. However, I fear that this power and others that I have previously spoken against in your Lordships’ House could be counterproductive in the long-term fight against terrorism. That is why I support the amendment that we are considering today.