Business and Planning Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 6th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I want to develop the views of the noble Lord, Lord Randall, on alcohol licensing. There is much to commend in the Bill, but we must try to eradicate the unintended consequences. The principle is right: to mitigate the effects of social distancing by allowing licensed premises to trade on adjacent pavements, to deliver alcohol and to sell alcohol to be taken away to be consumed in another building such as an office or a dwelling. The unintended consequence of the provisions that allow unlicensed premises to act like off-licences is that they would enable those who have already had enough to drink to buy alcohol to take away with them to consume on the street. with the potential for disorder and disruption to local residents.

People travel from miles around to socialise in city centres. I am sure many people will have seen the scenes in and around Old Compton Street in Soho on Saturday night. Although such areas have some premises licensed until 3 am, the London Boroughs of Westminster and Camden are unique in London in having no 24-hour off-licences. In normal times, the rest of Greater London has hundreds, but central London has none. Presumably this is for the sake of local residents. Local authorities want revellers to go home at the end of the night rather than hang around drinking on the streets after the on-licensed premises have closed. If revellers in such locations are allowed to buy alcohol to take away when these late-night premises are about to close, there is a real danger that the disorder that we have seen recently, in which many police officers have been injured, which was caused by illegal street and block parties, could increase. If revellers are allowed to take alcohol with them when they leave when the party closes inside these late-licence premises, they are likely to continue the party outside on the street.

This legislation requires amendment to differentiate between deliveries and takeaway alcohol that are taken to another building for consumption, and street drinking outside the areas covered by pavement licences. At the very least, allowing off-sales of alcohol in open containers should be excluded. People walking down the street with pint glasses full of alcohol is a recipe for disorder and potentially for violence. The image of someone who had a broken beer glass pushed into his face is one I will never forget. Sales should preferably be not only in sealed containers but ideally in a sealed plastic bag, as currently happens with sales of duty-free alcohol in airports. This is done to prevent air rage caused by passengers who drink their duty-free alcohol on the plane rather than waiting, as intended, until they arrive at their destination. The same principle applies here. Everything possible should be done to ensure that alcohol is not consumed until the destination is reached.

At the very least, the Government should consider limiting the extension of off-sales from on-licensed premises to normal licensing hours—say 11 pm. The scenes in Soho over the weekend will have concerned many. Consider what might happen if those present are allowed to buy alcohol at 2:45 am to take away, just before the premises close. I suggest that they are far more likely to stay drinking on the street than to take their alcohol home with them. We must not allow this to happen.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Paddick]

26: Clause 11, page 8, line 33, leave out from “must” to end of line 35 and insert—
“(a) be made at a time when the licensed premises are open for the purposes of selling alcohol for consumption on the premises; and(b) be made at a time no later than 11.00pm.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would mean that off-sales could not take place after 11pm, regardless of whether the premises can sell alcohol on the premises after 11pm.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Do not worry, my Lords, this is not going to be a long statement. I thought it might assist noble Lords to know that I intend to table an amendment on Report to introduce a standard cessation time of 11 pm for operators to trade under the new off-sales permissions.

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her promise of an amendment but, regrettably, we have a series of amendments in this group: Amendments 26, 30, 32, 34 and 35. I will briefly put on the record what they are, although they are set out in the Marshalled List.

In addition to the amendment promised, the Government need to think about amendments that aim to prevent street drinking and disorder, particularly late at night, where late-night licences are in operation for on-licence premises in the vicinity of residential premises, as the Minister has suggested she will do. If revellers who have already consumed a lot of alcohol are allowed to purchase alcohol to take away just before premises close, sometimes just before 3 am, there is a danger that they will simply party in nearby streets, to the detriment of local residents. The Minister’s suggested, albeit completely last-minute, promise of an amendment is welcome to that extent, but, whatever the hour, if alcohol is sold in open containers such as pint beer glasses, there is every incentive to consume it in surrounding streets rather than take it home or to the office. If alcohol is sold without restriction as to the kind of container—such as pint beer glasses—in which it can be supplied, as allowed under the Bill, there is a danger of injury either by assault or by accident; for example, were someone to fall while carrying a beer glass. The potential for both assault and accident increases with consumption of alcohol.

At Second Reading, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, tried to allay these concerns by pointing to the provisions in the Bill to review and revoke off-sales if premises were causing problems, and the power under Section 76 of Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to close down premises. Those provisions are largely unworkable as they require the particular premises responsible for the problem of street drinking, violence and disorder to be identified. In central London, for example, there are hundreds of on-licence premises within short distances of one another, and it would be practically impossible to identify from which premises the revellers causing the problems had bought their alcohol. There are more than 100 premises with post-1 am licences in Soho alone.

Some of those most likely to be affected, represented by the West End Community Network, will support what the Minister has promised because they support an 11 pm end time for off-sales and have not asked for a restriction on when off-sales can begin. Can the Minister explain why the Government have left it until tonight to give even the slightest indication that they are prepared to bring forward their own amendment? Will she agree to meet me and other interested Peers between now and Report to discuss both the Government’s proposed amendments and the other amendments in my name in this group? In the meantime, despite what the Minister has said, I move Amendment 26 in order for her to respond at the end of the debate.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Several speakers have withdrawn from this part of the proceedings: the noble Lords, Lord Harris of Haringey, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Lord Naseby and Lord Hayward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the off-sale of cheap alcohol is not a novel concept in terms of the Bill. I totally concur with the noble Baroness’s concerns about the harms of alcohol and about the accessibility of cheap alcohol attracting people who might not have enough money to go to the pub. Ironically, that is why I support pubs: because drinking is done in a much more controlled way. Licensees have an obligation to chuck people out of the pub if they are behaving irresponsibly. Therefore, landlords are prohibited from selling off-sales as well as on-sales to someone who is clearly drunk. It is a good safeguard.

[Lord Paddick [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Balfe and Lord Sheikh, for supporting Amendments 30, 32 and 35. There appears to have been a mis-communication over the extent of the amendments that the Government were going to bring forward on Report, which took me slightly off guard—so, with the leave of the House, I will say something more.

I thank the West End Community Network, the Soho Society and the Covent Garden Community Association for their briefings on these issues. I am grateful for the Minister agreeing that new off-sales should be limited to 11 pm. But the Minister does not appear to have heard my reasoning as to why the measures she set out to vary off-sales licences and the power that the police have to close on-licence premises are not effective. I will not repeat them again; I will allow her to read them in Hansard.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 20th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 29, I will also speak to the other government amendments grouped with it and to which it relates. I thank noble Lords who have scrutinised the alcohol licensing measures in this Bill and, in particular, those who have made points regarding late opening hours. The Government have listened to and understood the concerns around the possibility of associated noise nuisance and anti-social behaviour occurring when a late licence is in existence.

Taken together, Amendments 29, 31, 32, 33, 34, 36, 38 and 44 introduce a standard cessation time of 11 pm to operators trading under the new off-sales permissions. They also limit the ability of those premises which are licensed after midnight to resume off-sales at that time, restricting their ability to do so until they open for business the following day. With these amendments, new permissions will apply only until 11 pm or until the current licensing hours for that premises end, whichever is earlier.

We have also tabled Amendment 45, which addresses those premises that may have restrictions on their licences that do not permit the use of a beer garden or other outdoor space beyond a certain hour. Amendment 45 will limit the ability of a premises to carry out off-sales under the new permissions where they are already limited from selling alcohol for consumption in an outdoor area of the premises. That is, if a premises cannot use its outdoor area beyond a particular time, it will not be permitted to carry out off-sales beyond that time under the new permission either. This amendment is a further safeguard to help to ensure that this measure works for local communities and not against them.

I thank again the noble Lords with whom I have engaged inside and outside of this Chamber, who have helped to bring forward these constructive amendments that the Government have tabled today. I look forward to further debate. I beg to move Amendment 29 and look forward to responding to the other amendments in this group.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 40, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Pinnock, and to the other amendments in this group. For the benefit of those who may have just joined us, let me summarise. The Government have got themselves into a right two and eight. Amendments 29 to 41 deal with bars, pubs and restaurants that have licences to sell alcohol on their premises and which will temporarily be allowed to sell alcohol for consumption off the premises as result of this Bill.

The Bill does not redefine the area covered by pavement licences as being part of the licensed premises. As a consequence, drinks served within the area covered by pavement licences will be off-sales. To enable alcohol, such as glasses of wine and beer, to be served at tables within pavement-licensed areas, the Government have had to lift the current restriction on alcohol off-sales being only in sealed containers. The unintended consequence of lifting this restriction is to allow the unrestricted sale of alcohol from these premises in wine and beer glasses, for example, to people who can then walk down the street, drinking where and when they want.

Local residents do not want people drinking outside their homes, away from licensed premises, with the potential for disorder, violence and urinating in the street, particularly late at night. In addition, broken straight beer glasses can cause horrifying injuries, whether when deliberately broken and used as a weapon or when people fall on to broken glass.

This brings me to the amendments. The Liberal Democrats’ Committee amendment, which sought to restrict off-sales to no later than 11 pm, has been given effect by government Amendments 29, 31 to 34 and 36 in this group, which obviously we support. I thank the Minister for securing this—albeit limited—concession. However, these amendments do not prevent street drinking away from pavement-licensed areas and neither does Labour’s Amendment 39 in this group, albeit that it restricts it to street drinking from plastic cups.

Our Amendment 40 restricts off-sales in open containers to pavement-licensed areas, beer gardens and the like, but also supports businesses by allowing alcohol to be taken away from restaurants, pubs and bars in sealed containers. If the restaurant or pub is too full when you get there—because of social distancing, for example—it allows you to take alcohol home from those premises in an unopened bottle, can or other sealed container, as currently applies to existing off- licences, supporting hard-pressed businesses as a result. Amendment 41, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, does not allow alcohol to be taken away from the premises under any circumstances, which would hinder trade.

In a meeting with Ministers last week, the Government agreed to discuss Amendment 40 with us before Report but they have failed to do so. I explained in Committee why existing provisions and the provisions in the Bill are inadequate to deal with street drinking and disorder. As a consequence, I give notice that I intend to divide the House on Amendment 40.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Mann.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Paddick]

40: Clause 11, page 9, line 34, at end insert—
“(5A) Where subsections (4) and (5) apply, off-sales must be made in—(a) an aluminium or tin-plated steel can;(b) a sealed glass container; or(c) a plastic container.(5B) Subsection (5A) does not apply where the sale of alcohol is for consumption—(a) in accordance with a pavement licence as defined by Part 1 of this Act; or(b) in an outdoor space directly attached to the premises and under the control of the licensee.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would prevent the sale of alcohol off-premises in a beer glass or other container that could easily be broken and used as a weapon.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Balfe and Lord Bhatia, and my noble friends Lord Shipley and Lady Pinnock for supporting the amendment. To answer the question from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, provided drinking takes place outside a pub within the curtilage of the premises—that is, on the licensed plan—it is legal. Once it goes beyond that, drinking in open containers is illegal. This is to prevent people walking down the street and consuming alcohol in pint glasses or wine glasses without restriction, which this allows.

The Minister said the appropriate place for this to be addressed is in guidance, not legislation. With the greatest respect, that is complete and utter nonsense. The rules around current off-licences are set down in legislation. The legislation says that off-licences are not allowed, in law, to sell alcohol in open containers. She talks about an effective and long-standing regime. The effective and long-standing regime to prevent the sort of disorder the amendment seeks to prevent is exactly the same as it is for off-licences.

I do not know whether the Minister has seen the irresponsible participants in street parties and block parties that the police have had to deal with during lockdown. Without this amendment, we will see even more of that sort of thing. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.