NHS: Staffing

Lord O'Shaughnessy Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that the National Health Service has sufficient staff following Brexit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, my department is working with Health Education England, NHS England, the royal colleges and others to make sure that the NHS is able to recruit and retain the staff it needs. Furthermore, we are working with NHS and social care employers to make sure that the 167,000 EU nationals working in health and care can access the EU settlement scheme, which will safeguard their rights to live and work in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. Earlier this year he pleased the House by announcing that NHS staff who had worked in the NHS for more than five years would be allowed to remain in Britain under the settled case arrangements. Can he advise the House whether, following the Prime Minister’s statement on immigration at the Tory party conference, that remains the case?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Yes, it is absolutely the case that anybody from the EU who is living and working in this country, not just in NHS and social care, before exit day—or December 2020, the end of the withdrawal period—will be able to apply for settled status. Indeed, if they have not lived here for five years, they will be able to apply for what is called pre-settlement status and then apply after five years.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

Do the Government have evidence of a rapid turnover of psychiatrists on mental health wards? Are many posts held now by locums and is this affecting the continuity of treatment of patients and the review of their cases? How can the situation be improved?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I hope the noble Lord will forgive me: I do not know the specific details about psychiatrists. I know that we need to recruit more doctors, which is why there has been an increase in the number of medical training places. There are in fact around 12,000 more doctors in the NHS today than in 2010. We do have a challenge in mental health, which is to recruit not just doctors but nurses and other assistants to make sure that we can deal with the mental health cases that are sadly not being dealt with in a timely manner at the moment.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, staffing shortages predate Brexit and are across all disciplines and professions. Will the Government consider looking north of the border for a solution to nursing shortages? Scotland has decided to increase the student bursary for nurses, whereas English nurses in training now get no bursary at all. Might an investment in England help attract people to the career of nursing, rather than sending the message to student nurses that they are not valued as much as those in Scotland?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

It is absolutely not the case that they are not valued as much as in Scotland. This country has completely different higher education funding arrangements from those in Scotland. We are taking multiple routes to increase the number of nursing staff in the NHS, including increased funding for clinical places, the nursing apprenticeship route, more retention and bringing nurses back into the profession. We are determined to increase nursing numbers.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, has my noble friend had the opportunity to read the Economic Affairs Committee report, Treating Students Fairly, which shows that by 2050 the write-off on student loans will be £1.2 trillion? Given that most student nurses are not paid sufficiently to be able to repay most of that money, why not write off the loans for graduate nurses at an early stage in their careers and show a commitment to the health service—and actually save the taxpayer a lot of money 30 years from now?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am aware of my noble friend’s long-standing interest in this area. It is an issue on which we disagree. I happen to think that the changes to the funding of higher education introduced by a Labour Government and continued by the coalition Government provide a fair distribution of benefit and cost to both the taxpayer and those who benefit from higher education.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

The Minister has reassured the House on several occasions that the NHS will survive Brexit and the staffing will not be affected. However, when the Home Office announced plans in June this year to temporarily exclude doctors and nurses from the annual tier 2 visa gap, it meant that 1,500 applications were turned down. That does not seem to be sending the right message to those doctors and nurses from the European Union who are already here. We know that the BMA found that 77% of EEA doctors stated they would consider leaving the United Kingdom if the Brexit agreement did not suit their purposes—and that is actually about making them feel welcome here.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I completely agree with the noble Baroness that we want to make them feel welcome. I use this opportunity to state again how much those staff are valued and how much we want them to stay here. What we are doing about it practically is making sure that we communicate with employers and provide the EU settlement scheme—indeed, health and social care workers will take part in the pilot, which will happen later this year. We are sending that message and providing that reassurance. I understand that there is anxiety out there, which is why we want to reassure people, but I am reassured by the fact that there are more people from the EU working in the NHS and CCGs today than there were two years ago.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister comment on whether he will consider abolishing the health immigration surcharge, which non-EU nurses must pay to access NHS care? It is stopping people coming to work here.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The immigration surcharge, which applies to all people coming to work here from outside the EU, is about making sure that there is a fair contribution to the running costs of the NHS. That is a reasonable thing to do—it is what the public would expect us to do—but it is important to ensure that it is done in a fair and reasonable way, which represents the average costs incurred by people coming from outside the EU.

[Baroness Corston (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said in response to one of my colleagues on these Benches that there were 12,000 more doctors now in the National Health Service. Can he tell us how many of them work part time?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I gave the wrong number: there are actually 14,000 more doctors. I am sure that the noble Baroness would welcome that. I do not have the figures on part-time working but we know, for example, that in general practice there is increasing interest in part-time work. That of course means we need to recruit even more people, which is why it is encouraging that this year there are more GPs in training than ever before.