Environment Bill

Lord Oates Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I welcome this part of the Bill. I refer to my interests as in the register, in particular that I am vice-president of the Association of Drainage Authorities and that I worked with the Water Industry Commission for Scotland for a number of years. I also declare my interest as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Water Group. I welcome Amendments 160A, 160B, 160C as probing amendments and would like to follow up the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and my noble friend Lord Blencathra.

In the regulations to which the Government refer, and as referred to specifically in the amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, it would be helpful to know who the consultees are. I wish to place on record what an enormous difference it has made since the Environment Agency became a statutory consultee to applications for major new developments. I know that at one stage drainage boards themselves would have liked to have been considered as statutory consultees in relation to similar amendments, but they are focused more now on the provisions of the Bill which relate to drainage authorities, which I personally welcome, and which we will come to later. It is essential in my view—and I do have an amendment down to this effect—that water companies be considered as statutory consultees, for reasons which we will discuss elsewhere.

I welcome the references to water efficiency in earlier parts of the Bill, and I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, referred to water moving between catchments. Catchment management control is a very positive way forward. He also referred to reservoirs. Has my noble friend the Minister had the chance to look at—and, if not, will she look at—the most recent advice given by Professor Balmforth on reservoirs? I particularly support what the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said about smaller reservoirs, particularly in the context of what my noble friend Lord Blencathra said about nature-based solutions. We had an extremely successful scheme with the Slowing the Flow at Pickering pilot project, which only involved public bodies, and I am delighted to say that Pickering has not flooded since we have had this scheme in place. I pay tribute to all the partners—albeit public partners—that have been involved. We can slow the flow not just by building reservoirs, as those of a particular size do pose problems because of the current legislation, but smaller bunds and dams, and smaller reservoirs all have a role to play.

I welcome these as probing amendments to see specifically what form of consultation the Government have in mind in the context of these provisions in Part 5.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and I welcome the amendments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, on the important issue of consultation.

As noble Lords are aware, the Bill as currently drafted would delete subsection (8) of Section 37A and subsection (7) of Section 39B of the Water Industry Act 1991, which provide for a list of statutory consultees that “shall” be consulted, to use the wording in that Act. It replaces those subsections of that Act with a new Section 39F which would allow, but does not require, the Secretary of State to make provision for preparing and publishing a water resources management plan, a drought plan and a joint proposal. It fails to set out the list of stakeholders which must be consulted, as required in the existing Act. The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, would address that.

I note that, back in 1991, it seems that Bills that came before Parliament were a lot less equivocal than what we have now. The word “shall” rings out throughout the Water Industry Act 1991, whereas the word “may” is the dominant phrase of this Bill. Of course, the use of “may” puts far more power in the hands of Ministers and far less power in the hands of Parliament. Beyond the issues directly addressed in these amendments, there are a number of subsections in the new Section 39F which involve “may” where, in my view, a “shall” would be much the preferred formulation. Section 39F(5), for example, provides that

“regulations may make provision for the purposes of ensuring that persons likely to be affected by the plan or proposal have a reasonable opportunity to make representations to the Minister.”

Again, it would be useful if that was a “shall”, and the Bill would be considerably improved if most instances of “may” became “shall”. But for the moment, we on these Benches are happy to support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this is a rather substantial group of amendments, and I am a very insubstantial person right at the end of list. Nevertheless, I will have a go, because it is a very important group.

Climate change has an increasing impact. We are seeing lower flows in rivers, more intense rainfall flowing rapidly off land and hard surfaces into watercourses and more occasions when storm overflows are spilling untreated sewage into our rivers. We need to take swift action to ensure that less rainwater and surface run-off gets into the foul water spill-off system. Noble Lords have previously remarked on that; it is a very ridiculous way of managing a drainage system to put clean water with dirty water.

Some 50% of our storm overflows that are in the firing line tonight are in fact probably okay and operating within acceptable limits. However, 30% have unknown impact: we do not know what harm they are causing and there is an urgent need for better understanding of that impact. Meanwhile, 15% are already known to have totally unacceptable impacts and need either engineering or catchment base solutions, so that they do not spill. This means bigger storm tanks, conveyance by pipes to alternative treatment works, increasing the capacity of some sewage treatment works and possibly UV treatment, as well as reducing the amount of surface water that goes into the foul water system.

Currently, drainage from roads can automatically be discharged into the foul water system. Can the Minister assure us that the Government will make it mandatory for all major new roads to have substantial drainage systems with sufficiently large tanks in flood conditions to ensure the foul drainage systems are not overloaded with unacceptable resulting spillages?

For all these reasons I support Amendment 161 in the names of my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb—one can never have too many Baroness Joneses—and my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock. It inserts the provisions of Philip Dunne’s Sewage (Inland Waters) Bill, which has been praised already by several noble Lords. In my view, this lays out a fairly comprehensive and effective strategic approach with a menu of options. That is very different from the Government’s rather limp and inadequate Amendment 165, which is all about monitoring and publishing and not about doing.

I also commend the spirit of Amendments 166, 167 and 168, tabled by the noble Duke, Lord Wellington, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Oates, which seek the elimination, not just the reduction, of untreated sewage. These amendments talk about using “all reasonable steps”. I suspect that the Government’s judgment of what is reasonable—if we can take their woolly, wishy-washy amendment as a yardstick—would be different from what may be judged reasonable by noble Lords.

I also support Amendment 172A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, which seeks to ensure that CSOs are discharged on a temporary basis only in agreed, genuine storm conditions in terms of volume and duration of rainfall. Too many CSOs regularly discharge in conditions that are far from storm conditions.

I also comment on and commend my noble friend Lord Whitty’s Amendment 161B on reducing domestic and non-domestic water consumption. As he noted, it appears rather oddly in this group since it is concerned with water quantity rather than quality. We simply cannot live with the fact that a rising population could be allowed to lead to a rising demand for water, as increasingly erratic weather patterns could mean more frequent periods of low rainfall and consequent drought and the current over-extraction from rivers and aquifers for agricultural industry use is already a problem.

There are some fascinating statistics in this area, and we may well rehearse them again when we get to clauses covering water quantity. Currently, the average Brit uses 142 litres per day, while the average German person uses 121. The gradient is even more marked between London and Berlin: the average Londoner uses 150 litres per day, and the average Berliner uses 110. To my certain knowledge, using a scratch-and-sniff test, I have not yet detected any difference in the hygiene levels of Berliners, who are using almost a third less water than Londoners. Added to that, customers with a water meter use 129 litres per day, while those without one use 171.

There is clearly big scope for increased water efficiency, and the amendment of my noble friend Lord Whitty would require the Secretary of State to set targets to reduce both domestic and business consumption, which would drive a long-overdue change.

[Lord Oates (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to support the amendments in the names of the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, to which I have also put my name. As we have heard, they seek to strengthen the new clauses that government Amendment 165 introduces. As the noble Duke said, it is completely unacceptable that, in the 21st century, we are discharging raw, untreated sewage so regularly—or indeed at all—into our rivers. I also welcome the amendment in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Hayman, which has similar objectives and, as we have heard, takes up the initiative of Philip Dunne’s Bill in another place.

There are other important amendments in this group, including Amendment 161A, in the name of my noble friend Lord Chidgey, who made a powerful case for the amendments as a whole, but particularly for his, on the issue of septic tanks and rural connections to mains sewerage, which is a very important issue. He mentioned that, in continental Europe, septic tanks are progressively being phased out. I am lucky enough to have regularly visited a village that is beside the River Charente in south-west France, and I can confirm and attest that, some six or seven years ago, they phased out all septic tanks there and put the whole village on the mains sewerage system. The beautiful cleanliness of the Charente is testimony to the effectiveness of that: it is a great place to swim—unlike some of our own rivers, I fear.

Amendments 170A and 188D, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, and my noble friend Lord Teverson, need to be addressed by the Minister. As the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, explained, they highlight the important role of catchment partnerships and the need for their key role to be recognised in the Bill. I also strongly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on the need to reduce domestic demand, but, as he said, that issue will be dealt with in other groups that we will come on to.

It is welcome that the Government have at least acknowledged that the existing Bill was substandard in the important area of discharges into rivers, and have brought forward an amendment to tackle that. However, from the debate that we have had this evening, it is abundantly clear that the amendment put forward by the Government falls woefully short. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, said, it is a very pale imitation of Philip Dunne’s Bill, which it is supposed to take the place of, in some way. As we have heard, it does not impose a duty on water companies to take all reasonable steps to prevent sewage outflows; it aims only to reduce the frequency, duration and volume of discharges and has no ambition to eliminate them. It also does not set any specific targets for reductions.

It does require the Secretary of State to prepare a plan, but, as the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, said, it provides only that that plan “may” include proposals to reduce

“the need for anything to be discharged by … overflows”

or to treat “sewage that is discharged”, or “monitor water courses”, or “obtain information”. It is all “may”—there is no requirement that the plan must include these critical elements. In the previous group we were speaking on, I was not convinced at all by the Minister’s explanation, nor indeed by the explanation in the letter that we received ahead of this Committee stage, on “must” and “may”. We know that “may” puts the power in the hands of Ministers, and they may decide not to do any of the things that we wish them to do. So, that “must” is very important.