Lord Oates
Main Page: Lord Oates (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)
Lord King of Bridgwater
The answer to the first question is no. The second I will need to think about, as it is far too complicated for me.
Lord Oates (LD)
My Lords, I speak in support of my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire. I must say that I followed his argument completely but I am not sure that I followed that of the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, at all. The noble Lord seemed to make the case that because strikes can be disruptive—we must acknowledge that they can be, particularly in the public sector areas of transport and education, as the Government have argued—and because of the impact on people, that justified the Government’s proposed thresholds. But is the idea that the Government do not impact on people? The Government impact on the lives of millions of people in many areas, not just during the period when a strike may take place. Not long ago, we were discussing the changes to universal credit in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill, which will have a massive impact on some of the most vulnerable people in this country. That is on a mandate of, what, 24%? What we are asking for is a bit of consistency from the Government. Why do they believe that trade unions should be held to a completely different democratic standard than the rest of our democracy operates to?
We should consider carefully this idea of introducing thresholds. It is a major step in the way our democracy operates. In the first place, it second-guesses what the people who do not vote actually mean. It may be that the people who do not vote actually mean they do not want to vote; it does not mean that they wish to vote no. However, under this system, we have the perverse incentive whereby if you wish to oppose strike action you may well be better off not participating in a vote. If you do participate, you may help people over the threshold. As a noble Lord said previously, somebody voting against a strike who tips the vote over the threshold is actually facilitating it taking place. That makes no sense whatever. In a situation where there was a 50% turnout—which would meet the first threshold under the 40% requirement—even if 79% of those voting in that ballot voted in favour, the strike would be illegal. That would have a massive impact on industrial relations.
Thresholds like this are almost without precedent in this country. The only example I came across was the rather ill-fated 1979 Scottish devolution referendum, in which there was a 40% threshold. That was universally regarded as a not entirely successful way to go about things and has never been repeated. It was certainly not something the Government were keen to take on for the European Union referendum. As I have said before, strikes are undoubtedly disruptive, particularly in the public sector, and they should be a last resort. If we vote to leave the European Union, it could massively disrupt all of our lives for ever, but nobody is suggesting a 40% threshold there—for the good reason that inventing thresholds like this simply undermines people’s faith in the system and can create extremely perverse outcomes.
Will the Minister tell the Committee why the Government believe it appropriate to impose such thresholds for a strike, which could cause disruption, but not appropriate in cases such as membership of the European Union? Why should this sort of threshold not be met when the Government are acting as a monopoly supplier of service? For instance, on the benefits system, with what mandate is a party with 24% of the vote savagely attacking the rights of vulnerable working people? There is very little consistency in what the Government are suggesting and I hope they will reconsider it.
Lord Monks (Lab)
My Lords, the point I took from the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, was less on the arithmetic and how it all added up and more on a warning to the Government not to overreach; not to be too arrogant. In a number of areas there is now a suspicion—I do not think that it is just on this side of the House—that the Government are being too arrogant with their opponents. Whether it is on Short money, voter registration or whatever, there is a sense that they are overreaching. It is not necessarily a matter for the Minister tonight, but I hope that the Government will bear that in mind when they look at their agenda for the Bill as we go into it more. A little bit of humility would come in very handy when they are working out their next moves in a number of areas.
The noble Lord, Lord King, should not always assume that strikes are unpopular. A neighbour of mine, in King’s College Hospital with a heart attack, was astonished when the junior hospital doctors got a round of applause from patients and staff when they walked in after their day off.
We talk a lot about history. In 1974 it was not the trade union members aggregated who made the difference; Edward Heath lost the election on the question, “Who governs the country?” So, funnily enough, strikes can catch a wind at certain times and if the Government really have their ear to the ground they will try to pick them out from the ones that are perhaps less popular. So do not always assume that strikes are turning off the population. Sometimes, they are not.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I still do not really understand the point. I shall come on to give some examples that may be helpful in explaining the thinking. This part of the Bill is quite straightforward because, as several people have told us, it implements a particular wording in the manifesto. I am trying to explain the background to that.
I cannot accept the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, although it is very good to have him involved in this debate since we worked together in the coalition. There is no parallel between our recent parliamentary elections or the matters mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, such as the EU referendum, and the proposed thresholds. In addition to the excellent points made by my noble friends Lord King and Lord Balfe, it is just not a fair comparison. It is right that strong support be required for strike action ballots, because strikes can affect large numbers of the public who do not get a say in the ballot and are dissociated from the relevant trade dispute. In contrast, the public are able to participate in elections and have a democratic say in the outcome. As my noble friend Lord King said, they do not face a binary choice and are choosing between a range of candidates. It follows that the successful candidate may have a smaller share of the overall vote.
I also realise that noble Lords are concerned that the treatment of abstentions, which I think is what the noble Lord, Lord Oates, was getting at, would make the thresholds harder to meet. Our objective is to ensure that strikes can only ever be the result of a clear, positive decision by union members, because the action can go on to cause widespread disruption for the public. Union members are free to abstain from voting, but this is not a positive vote. It is only fair that it does not count towards the threshold.
Recent events show that the threshold can be achieved when union members feel strongly about the issues that are relevant. For example, last year, RMT members were balloted on the night tube, resulting in a turnout of 53% and support of 48%. That means that 91% of voting members supported industrial action, surpassing the thresholds and putting beyond doubt the legitimacy of the ballot mandate.
Lord Oates
Can the Minister address a bit further the issue of the perverse impacts of an abstention being stronger than a no vote? In 2014, I think, the Royal College of Midwives balloted for action for the first time in its history. I believe that 82% voted in favour of action and 8% against. However, the turnout was only 49%. Under this Bill, any industrial action taken by the RCM would therefore be illegal. Conversely, if thousands of people had voted against the strike, it would have been legal because they would have met the turnout threshold. That does not make any sense at all. Can the Minister please address that perverse and absurd impact?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The noble Lord has answered his own question. Our reforms ensure that strike action does not take place on low or unrepresentative turnouts. That is why we have two different thresholds.
Lord Oates
Does the Minister seriously think that it would be a sensible situation for the Government to get into if, on a ballot of 82% of people voting in favour, that industrial action became unlawful? Does she think that would be good for industrial relations in this country? Would it help overall relations in this country?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, it is always possible to talk about individual examples. In a minute, I will explain some other examples in relation to the amendments that have been tabled. Asking that 50% of eligible members take part in a ballot regarding action which is going to be hugely disruptive to people in all walks of life seems to me to be fair and democratic.
The threshold does not ban strike action. I think that that is accepted. It may stop some strikes—I think I have to accept that—but only those which have not been able to secure a sufficiently strong mandate. It is about restoring a level of democratic accountability to industrial action and it will rebalance the interests of all working people, both union members exercising their right to strike and non-striking members who want to go to work and carry on their normal lives.
We have before us a number of amendments to lower the 40% threshold, and to reduce the requirement for a simple majority of yes votes. Reducing the thresholds would fail to achieve our objective. It would mean that the thresholds have no practical effect, and would not ensure that strike action could only go ahead as the result of a clear, positive decision by union members.
Let me illustrate the point. If the alternative threshold of 25% proposed in Amendment 9 were applied, then only 250 in a ballot of 1,000 need to vote yes in ballots for important public services. This adds nothing to Clause 2, which requires a minimum turnout of 50%, and a simple majority of those who vote to support strike action.
Lowering the threshold even further to 20%, as suggested by Amendment 8, would again make the important public services threshold meaningless. Finally, Amendment 2 would replace the requirement to achieve a simple majority in all ballots with a requirement that only 35% of those voting need to support strike action. If this applies to a ballot of 1,000 where 600 have cast a vote, then only 210 union members would need to vote yes.
I do not believe that members of the public would feel that this restores a level of democratic legitimacy to industrial action ballots. They would gain no comfort in knowing that they cannot get to work or get their children to school because less than a quarter of union members have supported this outcome.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I think we all feel that the plight and the needs of the disabled and elderly are important, but I was trying to explain the logic on this occasion. The fact that people in ticket offices are helping disabled and vulnerable people is actually a big positive.
There was some discussion about why London buses but not rural buses are included. During the recent strike of 2015, TfL achieved a partial service, but this resulted in 7.5 million fewer journeys. Workers on low incomes rely disproportionately on the bus service in London; around 40% of people using buses are on concessionary fares and some 50% of bus passengers have an annual household income below £20,000. In contrast, there is limited evidence of the impact of strike action on local bus services outside London and on the sorts of users who rely on these services.
Finally, in the Border Force we are addressing the significant risks to public safety in the event of disruption to border controls. We have focused on services in respect of the entry and exit of people and goods, as these are central to the carrying out of checks and to preventing illicit commodities, such as unlicensed drugs and munitions, entering the country.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about progress on nuclear decommissioning and when our findings will be announced. The sector, as he knows, is a complex, heavy-industry sector with interdependencies between the workforces within and between sites. The Government are working to better understand these interdependencies and the implications of forthcoming business changes, and to support workforce reform plans, before bringing forward regulations to apply the threshold in this sector. Any regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure.
Lord Oates
The Minister said that the reason the rules were not being applied to private schools was because there was no evidence of widespread disruption in such schools. Is there evidence of such disruption in the nuclear decommissioning industry? If not, why is it being included?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I think the arrangements on nuclear decommissioning are still under consideration. I can certainly come back to the noble Lord on the question of past disruption. It is clearly an area where it does seem important that strikes should not be entered into lightly. As I have said, there will be regulations, they will be subject to the affirmative procedure and this is on the list with good reason. The noble Lord will understand that we are looking very carefully at the arrangements and we have not come to a final view. I am sorry that on the question of timing I cannot give a firm answer, but I can say that we will be bringing an affirmative resolution forward.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am very sorry to disappoint the noble Lord but there is no evidence of strike action in those institutions having a major impact or, I think, of strike action at all. I am seeking to explain the difficult decisions that we have taken and set out in our consultation paper for the benefit of the House this evening. Perhaps I may continue, as it is getting late.
I believe members of the public would agree that strikes in the crucial services that I have outlined should take place only when there is a reasonable level of support. Restrictions on Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights are permitted where they are justified by a legitimate aim and are proportionate. The courts have made it clear that they will respect the margin of appreciation accorded to each national Government to decide on industrial relations policy. I hope I have assured noble Lords that we have thought carefully about where the threshold should apply, and that the specified services are justified.
“Essential services” of course means something very different. They are referred to by some of the reports of the ILO supervisory bodies in respect of services where it may be legitimate in certain situations to limit or prohibit strike action. Amendments 5, 10, 12 and 13 would wrongly align the 40% threshold with the ILO’s interpretation of “essential services”. The threshold is about ensuring that strikes can go ahead if they have a strong democratic mandate; it does not prohibit strikes. The Government have therefore deliberately chosen the term “important public services” to describe the services covered by the 40% threshold.
Lord Oates
I am sorry to intervene again but the Minister is simply wrong in this matter. As she mentioned, the ILO labour guidelines as set out in Chapter V define essential services. They talk about not just the prohibition on strikes but the limiting of strikes. It is simply not possible to argue that a 40% threshold is not a limit on the right to strike. The Minister may say that it is a legitimate limit but it is definitely a limit on the right to strike.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am afraid that we will have to disagree on that point.