Security Update

Lord Newby Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Lord Privy Seal for repeating the Statement in a timely way on the same day as it was made in the other place. I have often said from this Dispatch Box that the first duty of any Government is to ensure the safety and security of its citizens, but, when you look at it, it is more than that. In doing so, we must ensure that we uphold the integrity of our democracy and values.

I am sure that everyone in your Lordships’ House can recall where they were when we heard the news of the attacks on the twin towers, 22 years ago today. It is an appropriate time to recognise and pay tribute to the work of the intelligence and security agencies, who work alongside the police and other public sector organisations. I thank them for their work to protect us, in which they face unprecedented challenges and risks. Those risks are evolving in size, volatility and complexity. Security threats now appear through threats to our economy and technological systems, at our borders and through interference in our democracy. It is a huge challenge, and our security response must evolve to ensure that it is cohesive, comprehensive and able to adjust to face the changing nature of those threats.

In the last week, we have heard of two serious security issues: the escape from prison of a man facing charges for terrorism and the serious allegations of espionage on behalf of China. The police, intelligence agencies and justice system have our support in carrying out their investigations and should be left to do so. That also means that we have to be honest about the challenges faced and mistakes made; we have to recognise where there are gaps and take action to address them.

The Lord Privy Seal will understand that there is some incredulity that a man suspected of terrorism was able to escape from a category B prison under a van. It is extraordinary that he was in a category B prison—HMP Wandsworth—in the first place, that he had access to an area from which he could escape, and that it was not immediately noticed that he had absconded. I doubt that the Lord Privy Seal will be able to answer questions on this matter today, but I am sure that he recognises the importance of those questions that need to be investigated. Can he say whether the review into the security status of national security prisoners has been completed?

In response to the arrests made for espionage, there are questions about the actions the Government are taking to combat the threats posed by other states which seek to interfere in our democracy. MI5 issued an alert about Chinese attempts to influence Parliament 20 months ago. Our security services have long warned about interference in our democracy and in our elections, and there have been previous alerts and warnings about foreign actors seeking to penetrate parliamentary security. Can the Lord Privy Seal say anything about the actions they are taking in response to those specific warnings, and are they observed across government by both Ministers and those in their departments?

The Lord Speaker mentioned it in his introduction, but I ask the Lord Privy Seal to clarify whether the two men who have been arrested, and, I understand, charged with espionage, have been released on bail.

MI5 has also warned about commercial espionage from China, cyber risks and the threat to supply chains. The Intelligence and Security Committee has noted the Government’s lack of a long-term strategy towards China and is currently waiting for a response to the report it published in July. Can the Lord Privy Seal say anything more today about the specific threat posed by China? Can he more specifically say when the Government’s response to the ISC report will be published?

We must be able to work with China on key issues, such as climate change, but at the same time we must protect our national security and oppose attempts to infiltrate our democracy. In your Lordships’ House, we on the Labour Benches introduced an amendment to the National Security Bill to create stronger checks on donations to political parties which would have closed a loophole that allows shell companies to be used to hide political donations. The Government opposed that amendment. Can the Lord Privy Seal explain why, and will the Government now reconsider their position?

We know that the threats are not limited to China. For example, we saw the attack from the Russians in Salisbury, and we know there have been further cyberattacks and misinformation campaigns. In response to the shocking and terrible attacks on 9/11, the then Labour Government created a comprehensive strategy in response to state threats to national security. The UK counterterrorism strategy Contest established new links between the counterterrorism police, intelligence agencies and our public services, with the Home Office and the Government at the centre at the helm. The scale of the response that is needed today is certainly no less than that which was needed 22 years ago.

We are committed to extending this approach, if we are fortunate enough to be in government, by creating an equivalent strategy today to deal with such state threats. I can assure the Lord Privy Seal that the Government would have our support if they were to commit to introducing such a strategy and response now. I am not asking him to answer that at the Dispatch Box today, but will he commit to take this back to his Cabinet colleagues and report back to your Lordships’ House?

I end where I started. Nothing is more important in government than ensuring the safety, security and well-being of citizens. To fulfil that obligation, we need the right policies, strategies and collaborations. If we are to protect our democracy, we need to have a strategy in place, but we also need our citizens to have confidence in our democracy if they are to properly and effectively participate in it. This should be a joint endeavour across all parties and both Houses, and I hope the Lord Privy Seal will be able today to reassure us on the actions the Government are taking, and commit to going forward on this in a way that protects our democracy and security and unites the country, rather than creating division.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, there are two distinct but related aspects to this Statement. The first relates to the arrest of two people on charges of conducting espionage on behalf of China. The second relates more generally to our posture towards the security risks which China poses to the UK.

On the charges, I fully understand why it is inappropriate to comment at this stage. However, I confess to be bemused as to the nature of the spying which the parliamentary researcher might have undertaken. According to media reports, one of his crimes seems to be to have organised regular drinks sessions at a Westminster pub. This may not be a meritorious activity but it is hardly a serious offence. I think everybody will be fascinated to discover, if charges are pursued, exactly what kind of secrets the parliamentary researcher might have had access to. But for today, we must simply compose our souls in patience until further details of any charges emerge.

There is the more serious question of whether parliamentarians should have been told about the arrests at an earlier stage, so that they could take particular care in their dealings with China and Chinese entities. It is not clear when the Home Secretary and Prime Minister were aware of this case and why they decided to remain silent about it with parliamentary colleagues. Perhaps the noble Lord the Leader can enlighten us.

The broader issue which this case exemplifies relates to our overall posture towards China. The Statement says that the Government believe that China presents a systemic challenge to our values. It lists a number of actions which they have taken to counter these challenges, but it fails to convince. In July, Parliament’s Intelligence and Security Committee issued an excoriating report on China which said that the Government do not have a “clear strategy” on China and have not devoted sufficient resources to tackling the threat that it posed. The actions listed in today’s Statement do not constitute such a strategy. The Government should be making protecting our democracy a national security priority—something, incidentally, which they have already consistently failed to do in respect of Russia—and accept the recommendations of the ISC’s China report.

More generally, the Government’s record on standing up to China is weak. From the genocide against the Uighurs to Hong Kong, and from Taiwan to interference in our democracy, the Government have failed to take China seriously. The Prime Minister may have meetings in Delhi with his Chinese counterpart, but the suspicion is that he is more interested in trade, rather than these broader concerns.

Developing a clear overall approach to China should now be an urgent priority. One specific question which such a strategy must cover is the extent to which we designate China formally as a security threat. The Prime Minister originally claimed that China was such a threat during the Conservative leadership contest—and on this we agree—but since then, he has back-pedalled. The spying case illustrates the broad challenge which China now poses to the UK, yet the Government have failed to take Chinese interference seriously. They surely must now do so.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the general tone of the response. It is invidious to choose, but although I am grateful for the response of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, I am particularly grateful for the very statesmanlike tone of the noble Baroness. I of course underline her tribute to the work of the Security Service, and indeed all the law enforcement services. On the day of 9/11, I was occupying the office which is now that of the Lord Convener, and I remember vividly watching what was going on in a position of disbelief. We must support their work, which sometimes, of its very nature—often, perhaps normally—has to be done on a confidential and secret basis. I think all noble Lords understand that matters cannot be avowed and addressed in detail while cases are ongoing.

I heard what the noble Baroness said about the prison escape and, fortunately, the individual concerned was recaptured—after I had had a sleepless night as the police helicopters circled over Richmond Park. I did not resent that at all; it was essential that that man be retaken.

The Lord Chancellor certainly said that these matters would be looked into. I shall not expand on that; nor would I want to anticipate where the examination of those events might lead. I will make sure that the Lord Chancellor is made aware of her comments on that.

On the question of MI5’s alerts and concerns, of course we are concerned about China. I thought a disappointing aspect of the response from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, was that he rather belittled the range of action taken by this Government in relation to China. I repeated that in the Statement and do not wish to weary the House by repeating it again but a look at Hansard will see the significant actions we have taken, which, in addition to those in the Statement, include reducing Chinese involvement in the UK’s civil nuclear sector by taking control and ownership of China’s stake in the Sizewell C project. We have also passed the National Security Act, which I referred to in the Statement.

The director-general of MI5—since MI5 was referred to specifically—called this

“a game changing update to our powers”.

Those are his public words. He said:

“We now have a modern set of laws to tackle today’s threats”.


These will give law enforcement and intelligence agencies new and updated tools to deter, detect and disrupt foreign influence, including a foreign influence registration scheme that criminalises those acting covertly for states that pose the greatest threat to the UK.

There were various comments and I have to say that not everything said in this House derived from newspaper reports was entirely accurate. But I shall not be led to comment on what was or was not. I think all noble Lords will understand that this is an ongoing investigation and it is extremely important that we do not jeopardise any proceedings that may follow.

I was asked about the response to the ISC report. I think it may not be the first time I have been asked that very legitimate question. I was told that I was permitted to say “very shortly” in response. I am now telling everybody not to betray secrets but I did say that I could not say that again and was assured that “very shortly” really does mean “very shortly” in this case. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe will have heard those comments.

Information to Members of Parliament is again a matter for the relevant authorities. I shall not go down that road or say who knew what when. Noble Lords will have heard the Lord Speaker assure the House that:

“The extremely small number of people who needed to know about this issue were immediately briefed on a strictly confidential basis”.


That was held to be the responsible approach.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, said that our approach to China does not convince. The noble Baroness also said that we must have a serious response to China. I believe that was implicit in the Statement and explicit in the Statement made by my right honourable friend in the other place. I underline what he said and what the House feels: China is a country that—sadly—has fundamentally different values from us and therefore represents a systemic challenge to the world order.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that China’s behaviour is increasingly concerning. It is becoming more authoritarian at home and more assertive overseas. We are alert to that challenge and I would say, as I often say in this House, how much we feel fortified by the support across the Chamber. We must take the necessary steps to stand up for our values and protect our interests.

On the other hand, China is also a permanent member of the UN Security Council. It is the second largest economy in the world and has an impact on almost every global issue of importance to the UK. Our overall approach, therefore, must be rooted in our national interest and co-ordinated with like-minded partners, as I referred to with the AUKUS arrangements, the long-standing Five Eyes arrangements and the work on a new aerial provision with Italy and Japan. We will go on working with like-minded partners. We are sending the aircraft carrier presence to the East again to assure our allies there that we will go on working with them to maintain a stable international order. The integrated review refresh set out a new approach and measures to respond to the increasingly concerning actions of Chinese authorities.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that it is an epoch-defining challenge for our country and the world. We have been clear that China remains the biggest long-term question and threat to the UK’s economic security, but it is not smart foreign policy to reduce our entire approach to China to one word. Our approach should be measured in our actions rather than our words. We in the Government are confident that, with the support of the party opposite and others, we are taking the right actions to keep the United Kingdom safe and prosperous.