Prisoners: Imprisonment for Public Protection

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 1st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Labour Benches.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, to simplify the situation and make it abundantly clear: are the numbers rising or lowering in each category?

Information Commissioner’s Office Report

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I cannot disagree with the noble Lord that the rape review and the things we are doing for victims now are long overdue, and that there has been a culture along the chain of letting women down. Indeed, we should be making sure, and we are, that both referrals and prosecutions go forward.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, concern about non-disclosure of evidence was an issue a long time ago, when I was Attorney-General. The balance has swung the other way, to excessive intrusion. As defence counsel in many rape cases, there is an even more fundamental problem in ensuring that justice is done, as juries are reluctant to convict where the defence is consent. Will the Attorney-General lean on the DPP to publish statistics distinguishing consent cases from stranger-rapes, so that effective prosecutions can succeed in the former?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think that is the whole point of the criminal justice system: that evidence that comes forward distinguishes between consent and non-consent.

Mike Veale: Police Conduct Report

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Certainly the current proceedings are evidence that things are at least being taken forward. I appreciate that many noble Lords will feel very disgruntled about this, but several layers of scrutiny have been afforded to both Operations Conifer and Midland. The whole proceedings have been well scrutinised, but I still appreciate the frustrations of the noble Lord and other noble Lords.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Library has informed me that the report has not been made publicly available. Why not? Is it not time to finally remove the unproven stain on the character of distinguished servants of the state and for the Prime Minister, with the support of the leader of the Opposition, to grip the situation and instruct the Cabinet Secretary to take every administrative step to achieve this end?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think I just answered that question. As regards the IOPC publishing its investigation report, it would not be right to do so while there were ongoing legal proceedings. However, in due course it will be published.

Knife Crime

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister and Home Secretary have been rebuked by the statistics watchdog for using misleading figures, claiming a falling crime rate under their leadership. Who is right: the Government or the statistics authority? Some communities suffer much more than others from knife crime. Could we have a zero-tolerance policy and, in order to tackle the problem, a breakdown of the figures for the age, sex and race of the offenders?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the Home Secretary did state, in her evidence to HASC on 2 February, that while some aspects of crime are going down, not all aspects are. The Home Office press release on 27 January stated that the figure used to show the reduction in crime excludes fraud and computer misuse. Of course, data is crucial when we are thinking about interventions in whatever crime it is.

Sarah Everard: Home Office Inquiry

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that at the time there was not that duty to co-operate. The various things the noble Lord mentions will all be looked at in the course of the inquiry. He is absolutely right that some of the culture and practices will be interrogated deeply to see whether any changes are needed.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, having served on your Lordships’ Select Committee examining public inquiries legislation, I am still baffled as to why the Government are reluctant to announce having a statutory inquiry now. Why the prevarication? Surely when there is great public disquiet, particularly as to the safety of women, the Government’s preference should be for a statutory inquiry. No one, particularly the police at the highest level, should be able to avoid giving evidence on oath if the powers are there to compel the giving of such evidence.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As I have said, there is the duty to co-operate. That has been in place since last year. I take this opportunity, given that the noble and learned Lord has served under every Prime Minister from Wilson to Blair, to wish him a very happy 90th birthday for last week.

E-scooters

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, several measures can be taken. You can get a penalty fine of £300 and six points on your licence, or ghost licence, for uninsured use of these scooters, a £100 fine and three to six points for no driving licence, and a £50 fine for driving on a pavement.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the reality is that our streets are becoming a nightmare for the young, the old, the blind and the disabled. Will the Home Secretary tell the Mayor of London that, although it is an operational matter, some confiscation of e-scooters is not enough and zero tolerance should be imposed on our pavements for e-scooters and bicycles? When did the Minister last see a police presence on the streets of London outside the precincts of Westminster?

Criminal Trials: Intercept Evidence

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, this is quite a complex area. The information was obtained using an equipment interference warrant rather than an intercept warrant, and there are checks and balances within the criminal justice system to ensure that one route is not used in order to facilitate another outcome. We remain of the view that the review undertaken by the noble Lord is still valid.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, since intercept evidence is allowed in virtually every EU and common-law country, will the Government seek the advice of the Intelligence and Security Committee so that Parliament can decide, following the publication of its advice, the weight of the objections of the security services and inconsistencies where such evidence is allowed, in other countries, prisons and bugs?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We have done several reviews on this issue, including, obviously, that of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, back in 2014. We keep these matters under review, but for the time being we share the noble Lord’s conclusion.

Undercover Policing Inquiry

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

What is the cost of the inquiry to date and what is the target date for its report? It is acquiring the aura of the Saville inquiry. How many immunities have been granted by the Attorney-General? Since it has been said that the legitimacy of the inquiry is bound up with the full co-operation of its participants, is it diminishing?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The cost to date is £36.2 million. The report to the Home Secretary is due before the end of 2023.

Police: Sarah Everard Vigils

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I will quote directly from the Home Secretary, who said:

“It is right that I have had many discussions with the Metropolitan police and specifically the commissioner on Friday and over the weekend in relation to preparations and planning prior to Saturday evening. My comments are public and on the record regarding what has happened and, quite frankly, the upsetting images of Saturday evening. A review is now being conducted by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. It is right that that takes place.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/3/21; col 29.]


The noble Lord talks about operational independence. It is absolutely right that the police have operational independence, but it is also absolutely right that, first, the Government make the law and, secondly, that conversations take place between the Executive and some of the agencies of government.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as the day wears on, many protests give rise to excesses all round. My family tells me that, this Sunday afternoon, the police were courteous but firm. Was it the Government’s purpose in their regulations to ban all protests? If so, will they now regulate to preserve the right of protest, so that both police and the public are able to return to normality?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, noble Lords will recognise that banning protests was not at the heart of what the Government did; banning protests was part of keeping the public safe in this global pandemic—keeping down the numbers of people who get infected and therefore keeping people out of hospital.

Extradition Arrangements: European Union Member States

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 13th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The fundamental difference between then and now is the additional safeguards built into the proceedings, which in my view make them a more effective set of arrangements. There is also the notion of proportionality, which is crucial for both accused and victim.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Home Secretary claims that Brexit makes us safer. Is the sharp decrease in extradition cases at Westminster Magistrates’ Court, from about 10 cases a day to about one, a direct result of losing fast access to the European crime DNA databases? Does this reflect the position nationally?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We are on day 14 of the new arrangements so it is probably a bit difficult to give reliable data at this point. The agreement allows UK law enforcement to continue to share DNA and fingerprints so I am slightly confused by the premise of the noble and learned Lord’s question.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question as to whether we have embarked upon a macabre criminal trial of the dead, I think that the House would agree that the inquiry is there to learn the lessons of the past so that no more children have to go through what historically some of those children had to. I agree with him that at some point the inquiry will come to an end. It expects its public hearings to conclude by the end of 2020.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as a former law officer, I am most anxious to discover the facts of any wrongdoing so that any action can be considered and lessons learned, as we have heard. But has any terminal date been firmly put to this inquiry—a date that cannot be moved—and is there a ceiling on costs, which have shot through the roof?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble and learned Lord is right to say that, at some point, this inquiry will end. I have recently been to see the inquiry chair to understand the progress of the inquiry. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, the public hearings are due to conclude by the end of 2020. From there on, the Government will consider the final report and respond in due course.

European Arrest Warrant, Europol and Eurojust

Debate between Lord Morris of Aberavon and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very good point about political interference. In fact, that is one of the safeguards within what we are seeking. He is right to make the point that not all EU states are the same.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, will the situation after withdrawal be as effective as it is at present?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I would hope it will be enhanced.