Terrorism: Domestic Extremism

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a Jehovah’s Witness may or may not be an extremist depending on their activity. Extremists seek to justify behaviour that contradicts and undermines our shared values. If that is left unchallenged, those values that bind our society together start to fall apart: women’s rights are eroded, intolerance and bigotry become normalised, minorities are targeted and communities become separated from the mainstream. That sort of behaviour cannot go uncontested.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, can extremism ever really be legally defined?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It will be legally defined when it is defined in law.

Policing and Crime Bill

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 182 and am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, for moving it. Having spent over 50 years as a criminal lawyer, interspersed with ministerial office, I hope I have some knowledge of how the criminal law operates and of how the police operate too. I fully understand the concern that my Front Bench may express that it is important to send a strong message to potential and current victims. Of course that is important, but it is also important that a strong message goes from this House that we are concerned that justice is seen to be done to all, which is equally important. That was always a guiding light when, as attorney, I had to take decisions of this kind. The presumption was that every person is innocent until he is proved guilty. I venture to suggest that my experience in this field may not be unhelpful, as a prosecuting and defending practitioner, as a Crown Court recorder for more than 20 years and as Attorney-General, when I had to take personal decisions to prosecute and to ensure the balance was right and give appropriate instructions to those who actually prosecuted.

We have heard the expression this afternoon, “No smoke without fire”. It is an old adage. Cases in recent years have been totally unacceptable. The picture of the police superintendent standing outside the house of Sir Edward Heath and inviting persons to come forward reminded me of what might have happened in Nazi Germany. Leon Brittan did not know at all, and his family did not know until he was dead, that he had been exonerated. Lord Bramall, in very difficult circumstances, had every part of his house searched; Sir Cliff Richard, likewise. I would like to know in detail exactly the operational reasons for disclosure. Should they not be spelled out and should they not be supervised by someone? Why should they be the decision of any police officer who would like to disclose a name rather than having this supervised by a court?

Frequently we hear reports in the press that a white or black, middle-aged man has been arrested in south London, and in the usual kind of case that is more than adequate. I remember when Denis Healey, my former boss, was breathalysed on the way out of this House after attending a dinner. It was in every newspaper the following morning. Why was that? Did any money change hands for the disclosure of that suspected offence? Of course it took two or three weeks for him to be fully exonerated. This is what happens in real life, and I have often wondered, as a practitioner, why it is the same kind of solicitors that turn up at a particular station when somebody important or in the public eye is arrested. I wonder why. It needs investigation, clarification and supervision. I have tried to get the Law Commission to consider this problem. We should have all the arguments on both sides looked at properly, and those of us who are anxious would know what is the better solution. Because there is controversy in this House, its attitude and the attitude of Her Majesty’s Government is that they will not investigate. The problem will not go away. It offends my sense of justice to have anyone in the public eye given all this publicity when eventually it turns out that there is nothing in it. Any one of us might be put in this position, and people would come out of the woodwork to make allegations, as they tend to do.

Of course, if it is of help that a name is published, let us have it supervised by a judge. That is the basic control that is required. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, indicated earlier, if people are to be encouraged to come forward, why do they not come forward after a charge has been made? After a charge, everyone would know that a particular person is going to go before a court. Why should it be at the moment of arrest, when the evidence is only one-10th complete at that stage in many cases? I support the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was just about to say—I do not know whether the noble Lord will be satisfied by it—that the College of Policing is currently developing authorised professional practice on media relations, and its guidance makes it clear that decisions should be made only on a case-by-case basis when it comes to the releasing of names. I am not sure that I have satisfied noble Lords but I have tried to explain how we have tried to achieve balance in the protection of anonymity for persons who are accused pre-charge.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I wonder whether the Minister is going to deal with this difficult issue with its complicated argument by referring it to the Law Commission so we can have an independent view that may not be forthcoming from the College of Policing.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that I have explained that the Government feel that we currently have the balance right and that we should preserve that presumption of anonymity—so I will not be doing what the noble and learned Lord suggests. I hope that my noble friend will withdraw his amendment and that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, will not press his.

Sexual Abuse: Harassment of Suspects

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope I can reassure my noble friend that the Metropolitan Police will be consulting on all the review’s recommendations with the National Police Chiefs’ Council, police and crime commissioners, the College of Policing, and the statutory and voluntary partners in the criminal justice system. In addition, police investigations into persons of public prominence and institutions are now nationally co-ordinated under Operation Hydrant.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not a short answer to this problem—for the police not to publish names of suspects before charging?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is a general presumption of anonymity pre-charge but there are operational reasons why the police might wish to release names. I must say, however, in the context of this week, that if the legislation on pre-charge anonymity recommended in the review was in place today, it would have prevented the UK media reporting the claims that we have heard this week and last of some of those alleged victims where there had been no arrests.

Operation Midland

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure my noble friend will understand if I do not talk about individual cases, but I certainly concur with his point: suffering arises when people have their names released and are guilty of nothing. However, by the same token, victims often do not come forward because they are frightened, but they need to feel that they can in these situations. The report was commissioned by the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, and therefore its publication arrangements and whom he distributes it to are matters for him to decide.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, since manifest injustice results from the publication of names before charge, is it not a matter of urgency that the whole law and practice should be reviewed independently at the highest level and should not rely solely on the views of the police?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is the view of the Government that there should be a presumption of pre-charge anonymity, unless it is for victims who previously felt unable to come forward to do so. I must stress that victims’ groups are very supportive of some situations where it is right that names are released.

Criminal Justice: Anonymity

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with my noble friend that the strength of our legal system is that people are innocent until proved guilty, and I hope that that always stays the case. I also completely sympathise with his point about the terrible suffering that people can go through when their names are made public but they are not in fact guilty of anything. I will not talk about individual cases but he mentioned people against whom the accusations were found to be groundless. It is important to say that there is a very fine and difficult balance to be struck. The voicing of victims’ concerns and the naming of people in the public interest to allow further evidence or further victims to come forward needs to be balanced with the right to privacy and protection of the person who is suspected.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, in view of the manifest injustice that can result from the publication of the names of a wide range of suspects, is it not time to have a complete review of the law and practice in this field? Will the Government consider referring the whole issue to the Law Commission?

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That would be a matter for the inquiry to consider. It is an independent inquiry and it is not for us to try to micromanage or dictate what it does. It is independent. But I take the noble Lord’s point and I am sure the inquiry will be mindful of that.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, on 13 September, in view of the concerns of Judge Goddard, I asked the Minister that the terms of reference be amended. This was refused point blank. The Home Secretary told the Commons committee that the only reason that she knew of for Judge Goddard’s resignation was her loneliness et cetera. Her Permanent Secretary, sitting beside her, and officials, may have had much longer knowledge of concerns about Judge Goddard. Could this be clarified? Would it not be better for there to be a pause for reflection so that all involved, including the victims, could be satisfied that we are now on the right course—including having the right terms of reference?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the terms of reference were drawn up by the chair in consultation with the Home Secretary. The chair has made a statement today expressing her satisfaction with the terms of reference. As regards Judge Goddard, I understand that no concerns were raised formally and that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary had both a letter from Judge Goddard and what was presented to the Home Affairs Select Committee. Pausing for reflection is a matter for the independent inquiry. It is for the inquiry to decide whether it wishes to do that; it is not for us to tell it what to do.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to amending the terms of reference of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the inquiry is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to get to the truth, to expose what has gone wrong in the past and to learn lessons for the future. The Home Secretary is clear that the original terms of reference were the right ones, and the new chair has confirmed that she has no intention of asking for them to be revised.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

No lessons appear to have been learned from the Chilcot inquiry. One of the problems there was the width of the terms of reference. In her resignation letter, Judge Goddard referred to the,

“inherent problem in the sheer scale and size of the inquiry”.

The Home Secretary has given evidence that she has no expertise of an inquiry of this size. Will the Government think again about the proposal from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, that there should be a permanent body of expertise in the Cabinet Office to assist Ministers? In this instance, it could report to Parliament on the progress of this inquiry in 12 months’ time.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, on the terms of reference being too wide, the previous chairman and the new chairman agreed that the terms of reference are right. It was not until she left that the former chairman, Justice Goddard, talked about the terms of reference being too broad. The inquiry will report on a regular basis, including a review in 2018.

Criminal Justice: Anonymity

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

That specific idea was raised by the Home Affairs Select Committee in one of its recommendations. As the noble Lord will know better than most, it gives rise to particular issues and difficulties when applied across the board in all cases. But it is certainly something we should look at, and there will be legislative opportunities, most notably in the Police and Criminal Justice Bill, to consider such issues further.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, if injustice can occur in these circumstances, how is it justified to release names when there is no charge?

[Lord Bates]

The police very much need to deal with such issues on a case-by-case basis. I am struggling to think of particular circumstances, but they might include a threat to life, the prevention or detection of a crime, or public interest and confidence. Those are the tests that the police have to pass before it is done, and when it is done, it should be done in a formal way, not by leaking—which, of course, was the subject of another inquiry by Lord Justice Leveson, into the culture and ethics of the press.

Calais: Border Management

Lord Morris of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 24th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I do not want to stray into what might be considered a partisan point, but when a country has created 2.2 million jobs while there is still a high level of unemployment in the EU, particularly in France, that will clearly be in the minds of people who are making economic decisions. Economic migrants should be returned—that is not what we are looking for. If people are genuinely fleeing for their lives and for asylum purposes, their applications need to be considered in the proper way.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, is there an answer to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours?

[Lord Bates]

I tried to give one; I accept that it might not have been adequate. I was simply making the point that we would prefer the boat people to be recorded and registered in Italy, as is specified under the Dublin regulations.