Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, the history of Welsh devolution has been a very tortuous one. Since 1999, it has not been a straight run down the piste but a series of slaloms—but we are making progress erratically, and this Bill takes us further. It has a good deal of cross-party support, although that might not have been apparent from what we have heard in the past few hours. As other noble Lords have said, progress owes a great deal to the Minister, a man I have always regarded as a,

“good deed in a naughty world”,

to quote the Bard, perhaps because he was trained in Aberystwyth, although it was slightly before my time there.

Most of the discussion has been around the two main features of the Bill—the reserved powers aspect and the provisions over income tax. I shall deal with those fairly briskly, as so many of the points have already been made. It is profoundly right and long overdue that the Parliament—or, to quote my noble friend, the Senedd—should have reserved powers and not conferred powers. A very strong case for that was made by the Silk report, on the grounds of clarity. It is also important to give greater authority to the Welsh Assembly comparable to Scotland and Northern Ireland. I have never understood why the Welsh Assembly and Government did not have reserved powers from the beginning. We have now got them, although, as noble Lords have said, with a number of limitations.

The Bill has been criticised for its complexity and contradictions. As other noble Lords have done, I welcome many of its features. It is very good to remove the notorious necessity test, which caused a great deal of lack of clarity. I welcome the greater powers and welcome very much the extension of devolution to energy and transport and the running of elections. On the other hand, as noble Lords have said, there are all these many restrictions. As a historian I find it slightly ironic that a measure designed to extend devolution in so many ways goes back on our history. I see that one of the reserved powers is the supply, distribution and sale of liquor. As I tried to explain in a book of mine that appeared—oh dear—52 years ago, and which is still on sale in Aberystwyth in all good bookshops, the principle was admitted in 1880 of the Welsh Sunday closing Act. That is to say, there was a legislative principle accepted for Wales and, accorded through that, the pubs could or should close on Sunday. All these many years later, that is reversed, which is very ironic.

As many noble Lords have said, a lot of progress needs to be made in Committee in that regard. It just shows that over the decades the constitutional and political status of Wales has been unequal. That is what an asymmetrical devolution means—it means that Wales is unequal, and does not have the status in its Assembly or its political authority that the other Celtic nations have.

There has been a lot of discussion about levying income tax. I am all in favour of Wales having the power to levy its own income tax, as Silk recommended. It seems to me, to reverse the famous phrase, you cannot have representation without taxation.

It is unsatisfactory to have your funding based on money that comes from somewhere else that you grumble about, in this case Whitehall and the Treasury. The Labour Party and the Government in Cardiff—and I entirely understand this—have been very critical of many features of this, particularly the fact that it will be yoked to the Barnett formula. They would like to see that removed before Wales has its own income tax: they will have to wait a very long time. The formula was a temporary stop-gap by our dear friend the late Lord Barnett in 1978. There is nothing more permanent than a temporary stop-gap and so it has been with the Barnett formula. I do not particularly like the idea of another referendum. As we have seen with Brexit, the last thing you have with a debate of that kind is a sensible discussion of constitutional and financial principles. There would be lots of wrangling in the press about whether income tax would go up or down and that is all you would have: it would be intellectually worthless. However, the Welsh Government and the Constitution Committee have expressed concerns, so I hope the Minister can give assurances that the overall funding will not suffer and that, in particular, the Welsh Government will have the power to extend their borrowing powers in due course.

I want to talk mainly about three other things. First, it is very important that Wales should have its own legal judicature. It has legislative powers but not a legislative system. We have a growing corpus of Welsh powers coming into being, but we have no structure. There should be a distinct Welsh legal jurisdiction to, among other things, avoid institutional conflict. Again, it is ironic how we have gone back on history. We did rather better under Henry VIII, God rest his soul, than we do now. His Act of Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, will know, created Welsh courts—the Courts of Great Session, which disappeared in 1830. Otherwise, Wales suffers badly in this. We have no designated Supreme Court judge to pay attention to Welsh matters as there is for Scotland. There is an administrative court in Wales, but that is all. Otherwise, the Welsh legal system is administered through London. Therefore we find that Welsh law made in Wales and the wider English and Welsh law administered through the judicial system in London are applied to precisely the same areas of policy. At some stage this is bound to reach confusion and conflict. If you do not take my word for it, there is rather more powerful evidence from, for example, the late Lord Bingham, who spoke very positively in favour of this principle. We have also had very supportive remarks from the Lord Chief Justice. Since his name is Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, that may explain his particular way of looking at things.

We do not want a separate Welsh legal system. We are not talking about independence for Wales but devolution: a different political complexion. A separate system would be anomalous and very expensive, but we should and could have a distinct jurisdiction as they do in Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. Why not Wales? Why should Wales not have a system which would enable Welsh citizens to feel close to their law and which reflected their deeply felt identity as a nation?

I have two final points. I agreed very much with the peroration of the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell: the union. I declare an interest as a member—like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt—of the Constitution Committee. Our report, which the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, kindly quoted, was about the union and devolution. This is again an example of piecemeal devolution. I am not criticising the Government particularly on this. It has been happening repeatedly since 1999. Where is the overarching statement of principle about the result of a change of this kind in relation to the union? We reported on this and, as I said previously, a virtue has been made of asymmetry. I do not think it has virtue: it is a way of demeaning Wales. I hope that the Minister, in his response, or the Government, when we look at the Bill at a later stage, can explain the organic relationship of this measure within the overarching union which we wish all these devolution measures to reinforce, not undermine.

My very short final point is that it would be very important to clear up all these issues before we have Brexit. Brexit will have a major impact on Wales in almost every aspect: in agriculture, education, industry, and almost every feature you can think of. It is crucial to have constitutional clarity within the United Kingdom and between all its governmental institutions before the iron curtain comes down.

Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to speak on Clause 17, which the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, opposes. On many matters concerning devolution, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, were he here, would accept that we are usually in agreement. I was a great admirer of the way that he succeeded in getting the 2006 Act on to the statute book, notwithstanding its shortcomings.

Tomorrow is election day in the USA. “No taxation without representation” was the phrase coined in 18th-century colonial America. Today, in 21st-century Wales, we have representation but we do not have powers over taxation. We need both.

As the noble Baroness said a moment ago, the devolution of fiscal powers to Wales establishes an intrinsic democratic link between citizens and the policymakers they elect. Devolving income tax means that we can create better Welsh solutions to the challenges faced by Wales, in both the economy and the delivery of public services.

Although I understand the background to the wishes of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, described by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, for a referendum on income tax powers, I suspect that another referendum is not really what either of them dreams about at night. Indeed, if they do, they probably have nightmares about the use of this ostensibly democratic tool of government. They both know, as I do, how easily a referendum can transpose itself into a verdict on anything but the issue on the ballot paper. It should be used for only the most clear-cut matters, which the electorate clearly understand and know what the consequences would be. It may be fine for deciding locally whether pubs open or close on a Sunday but it is not an appropriate tool for deciding on taxation policy.

From what the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said, I think he agrees with me on the need for the Assembly to have some tax-varying powers at the appropriate time for reasons that are becoming increasingly apparent. One of the major challenges for the Welsh Government now is to trigger a substantial capital expenditure programme to develop our industrial infrastructure. Plaid Cymru has called for a national infrastructure commission for Wales, which would enable the Welsh Government to borrow up to £7.5 billion over a 10-year period, and we need a tax-raising facility to fund such a programme. It does not have to be income tax—it could be other taxes, which we will discuss later—but income tax should be available for the Welsh Government, in their wisdom, to decide whether or not to use it.

It has been estimated that the servicing cost of that £7.5 billion would amount to £165 million a year, and it is unrealistic to believe that such a sum could be funded from the minor taxes alone. This is why the devolution of income tax is essential. We cannot call for an expenditure programme without accepting the need to fund it. The two go hand in hand and are essential to build a new forward-looking economy for Wales.

Income tax devolution will be the dawn of a new era of accountability for the National Assembly, reflecting the need for a mature public policy to balance the requirement for resources with the practicality of raising them. It is all too easy—and politically far too facile—for politicians of any party to call for greater spending on this or that element of public services without saying how the money is to be raised. It is equally irresponsible for politicians on the right to call for lower taxes without explaining which public services would lose funding. The acceptance of both as obverse sides of the same coin is a reflection of political maturity. Giving tax-varying powers to the Assembly represents another step to it becoming a genuine home of Welsh democracy. For that reason, I support Clause 17 remaining part of the Bill.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate but I should like to make two points. First, I am not persuaded, after what we have experienced in the past few months, that referendums are a source of clear, unambiguous decision. They are disastrous. We have seen that in connection with larger matters than Wales. To have a referendum on the deeply technical issue of the relationships of finance between local and central authorities—a very complicated matter—would resolve into the popular papers of the Welsh press, such as we have, debating whether it would mean income tax going up or down. The idea that fiscal principles would be subject to deep and profound scrutiny is not credible. We have had quite enough referendums as a substitute for democratic decision. They are a bogus form of democracy for the reasons we have seen and I would not want one for this.

Apart from a referendum being an unsatisfactory source of clarity and wisdom, as has been said by other noble Lords, it is an imperative of devolution that the Welsh Government should have some fiscal powers. The Scottish Government have had them since 1997, although they have not used them, and that is perhaps significant for whether the Welsh Government would use them. We do not know.

A devolved democracy that depends on handouts from somewhere else inevitably provokes complaints—as it has done in the history of Wales for decades; Westminster never offers or does enough—and will produce unsatisfactory responses. On the references to the American revolution, the reverse of what was said is profoundly true: if you do not have tax powers or the ability to raise your own revenue, you are not really a democracy because you are in a position of subservience. The whole history of Welsh devolution and other parts of the Bill show—in spite of the excellent intentions of the Minister and others on the Conservative side—that Wales has been treated in an inferior sense. Its status has not matched that of Scotland or Northern Ireland. That is riddled throughout the Bill, nullifying its good and noble purposes. So it is with regard to taxation.

It has been said that we should wait until things sort themselves out and the Barnett formula is removed. Let us wait. It is a temporary stop-gap, as we were correctly told by the noble Baroness. Lord Barnett himself explained what a very bad idea it was, because it was designed to plug what was thought a short-term problem in, I think, 1978, when the distinguished noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, who is sitting in front of me, was in Cabinet—if I am wrong he can contradict me. Like other stop-gaps, it has survived the decades. It looks remarkably healthy for a stop-gap. A proposal to wait until the Barnett formula is resolved is a way to put off a decision completely. I very much hope we will not have a referendum and that we will bring to further completion the process of democracy in Wales.

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, I find myself agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, on the subject of referendums and, indeed, with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. I hope Clause 17 will stay part of the Bill. It would be particularly unfortunate to remove it when, as I pointed out at earlier stages, we still do not know what the financial arrangements will be. My noble friend has helpfully pointed out that we hope to know more about that before Report. In all the circumstances, it seems an extraordinary proposal that we should remove Clause 17. I hope very much, for the reasons given by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Morgan, that it stays as it is.

Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

Indeed. Education in Chubut is a wholly devolved matter in Argentina. The state legislature of Chubut has been very positive on these matters. It contributed to the opening of Ysgol yr Hendre 10 years ago, which I mentioned. It is now actively involved in the possibility of expanding the school at Gaiman. In other words, there is a good working relationship between the Government of Wales and the Government of Chubut. The central Argentine Government have been very supportive. Indeed, they have provided funds to safeguard all 16 of the Welsh chapels in Patagonia to ensure they all remain open, provided there is one service once a quarter in each of the chapels. In other words, whatever other dispute there may be—disputes do arise in Argentina on various matters—on this issue there is harmony that is well worth building on because of its interest not only in Argentina and to Wales but to the United Kingdom in our relationship with Argentina.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said is totally correct. Y Wladfa, the Welsh community in Chubut, rather benefited from the Falklands War, because the Argentine Government were rather anxious to show that they were solicitous of the needs of cultural minorities in their country. I feel, on behalf of Welsh historians everywhere, that I should support this. I have not been to Chubut, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has, but I have taught Chubut students in Swansea. I twice published articles by historians from that community in the Welsh History Review when I edited it. They have a very living contact; it is not an antiquarian matter. All Welsh people should strongly support it.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for introducing the amendment and other noble Lords who have participated in the debate. Through the amendment, the noble Lord seeks to extend the Assembly’s competence so that it could legislate otherwise than in relation to Wales to support the Welsh language and Welsh culture in the Argentinian province of Chubut.

Of course, the history of the Welsh settlement—“settlement” in a sense that I hope I will be allowed to use here—in Patagonia is one of the great stories of human migration and holds a special place in the hearts and minds of people in Wales. It is a story of typical Welsh tenacity and fortitude that led settlers to travel thousands of miles, driven by the desire for a better life and the dream of establishing a new Wales.

In Patagonia today, interest in the Welsh language and Welsh culture is flourishing, more than 150 years on from the first settlement. Members of the Welsh Affairs Committee in the other place saw this for themselves when they visited Patagonia in 2014, a year early, to mark the 150th anniversary of the arrival of the first Welsh settlers. Although the anniversary was in 2015, typical Welsh efficiency and promptness meant that they were there a year early. The settlement is of course a part of Argentina and, while Welsh culture thrives there, it is wonderfully intermixed with the rich culture of South America. I, too, have taken an interest in the settlement. When I was on the British Council committee, access to finance and help were certainly provided to Chubut.

When the amendment was tabled, my reaction was, “Surely, the National Assembly has the power to do this already”—and that is our conclusion. The common law-type powers that we are devolving to Welsh Ministers will ensure that they can continue to act in the way that they are doing in support of the Welsh language in Chubut. I will have another look at it to ensure that that is the case and will be happy to speak to the noble Lord if that is helpful, but I am sure that we would all want to see this continue. With that, I ask the noble Lord if he would kindly withdraw his amendment.

Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, as we turn the pages of history, I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. Having been born and brought up in the Ceiriog valley, I went through the controversy which took place, to which he referred most eloquently. As a Liverpudlian as well, I can recall the great debates that took place. We have to learn from the lessons of history, but there is no doubt in my mind that water is by far the most complex aspect of Welsh devolution. In many ways, it is what my great friend and colleague, Wyn Roberts, used to call Welsh water: dagrau o Dduw— the tears of God. It falls in all the wrong places, and as many noble Lords have already conceded, the devolution boundary follows water catchment areas rather than the England/Wales border and that is the extent of the problem. However, as my noble friend Lord Crickhowell pointed out, we have to confront that problem and find a solution. I strongly support the concept of a reserved powers model. My noble friend Lord Morgan and I had the honour to sit on the Constitution Select Committee. Although we applauded the setting up of a reserved powers settlement determining which powers should be devolved and which should be reserved to the centre, we said that it was a “complicated and challenging process”. This debate has demonstrated how complicated and challenging it can be.

I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, who has adopted the right approach to finding a solution by listening carefully to what has been said. I think the solution is there. We ought to take the opportunity to remind ourselves once again what the Silk commission determined because it outlined the way in which we can solve this problem. I am sure that my noble friend will know it off by heart but I think that it is the common-sense way forward.

I hope that my noble friend will say how far he can go on this issue. We have already had yesterday’s announcement, which I believe is a step in the right direction. I hope that we can find a solution by drawing the boundaries in the right place, or at least by making sure that the powers of intervention are limited. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, with his great eloquence, won the day for the communities which he represented. We must make sure that communities are never neglected in the same way ever again. Areas determined as being slums were ignobly swept away and their communities were forgotten about. The communities wanted to be relocated, if they were to be swept away, but they would have preferred to stay where they were and have their homes improved. Those communities in the valleys wanted to see the areas that they had lived in all their lives preserved. I do not know what my noble friend will say but if he follows his normal course, which I warmly applaud, I am sure that we will find a solution.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

As a historian, I agree with a great deal of what has been said, including the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. However, the view of the Bill will be fundamentally prejudiced if a substantial move is not made towards accommodating the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. The events at Tryweryn were a monumental injustice and a rural community in my own county of Meirionnydd was treated with contempt, about which I still feel great bitterness. It seems to me that it is, as it were, the Tonypandy of rural north Wales and is fundamental to how Welsh people feel their community has been dealt with. If something so fundamental and endemic to the concept of Wales is not substantially recognised by accepting this amendment in broad terms, the Bill will not receive the acclaim it otherwise deserves.

Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

I am not alone in my firm belief that Wales should have full control over a channel that belongs to the Welsh people. The Welsh language media are a central ingredient in our heritage and culture, and it is only right we are granted the entitlement to safeguard their future. I beg to move.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. Language is of course central to the Welsh identity. More than that, this television channel is almost alone. In so many ways, Wales is less adequately prepared in terms of cultural media than Scotland is. There is effectively no Welsh press; there is certainly scarcely a Welsh-language press. I think Y Cymro still appears once a week but the Welsh-language press is minimal. Therefore the television service, particularly Sianel Pedwar Cymru, the Welsh channel, is central in a way that is true for no other sub-nationality.

What my noble friend Lord Wigley is proposing is precisely what Silk proposed. Some time after 2006, when we had the previous system, I remember sitting through a debate discussing whether Welsh-language matters were a competence of the Welsh Assembly and thinking, “Who in heaven’s name does have competence other than the elected representatives of the Welsh people?”. This seems a central matter that goes to the heart of devolution and preserving and celebrating difference in Wales. I strongly support the amendment.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I have always felt that Welsh-language broadcasting should be part of the general broadcasting pool, not isolated from the rest of broadcasting. That way, I felt, there would be cross-fertilisation and Welsh-language broadcasting would not be seen as out of the usual in broadcasting.

On balance, though, it is clear that S4C has been under threat in recent years. Year after year, the Wales Office has to ride to the rescue of S4C by explaining to a Minister elsewhere in government why Welsh-language broadcasting is important and significant, and why it has a totemic importance in Wales well beyond the relatively small amounts of money that the Government are trying to cut from its annual amount. Indeed, if the control of S4C were devolved to the Welsh Assembly, I think S4C would still find itself under threat because it is responsible for spending a significant proportion of the total amount of money spent every year on the Welsh language. There are lots of other aspects of huge importance to the development of the Welsh language that would want part of that total amount of funding.

I do not think devolution is necessarily the answer but there needs to be a new settlement, a new concordat, or at the very least some kind of agreement between the UK Government and the Welsh Government to ensure that, year after year, the position of S4C is secure, not just in law and in theory but financially. The financial position of S4C should be secure so that there is not this constant fire sale going on. I therefore urge the Minister to look at a suitable solution to what I am sure he will acknowledge is a recurring problem.

Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, to which I have added my name. Although the amendment does not perfectly achieve the objectives of those of us on these Benches, I welcome the opportunity it brings to debate this important issue and to allow me to place our objectives on record.

The amendment itself reflects the views of the Silk commission, which recommended that, along with the devolution of youth justice, prisons and policing to the Welsh Assembly, a review of the legislative devolution of other aspects of the justice system should be carried out over a period of 10 years. Sadly, this Bill has not gone far enough to meet any of these expectations, although we have of course seen some movement on the matter of justice today.

Let me make this point and make the opinion on these Benches clear. We have followed and taken part in the debate over whether there is a need for a separate or distinct legal jurisdiction for many years and feel strongly that, sooner or later, the current system will require substantial reform to cope with the growing distinctions between the bodies of law produced by the two Governments. However, we have been cautious over whether now is the time for Wales to have a fully separate system from England. At this stage in the devolution process, we call for a distinct legal jurisdiction for Wales, but while the English and Welsh jurisdictions are still similar, we would support sharing the judicial framework, so as not to wastefully duplicate resources. The consequential massive savings on costs, at a time when Wales would be finding its feet as a legal jurisdiction, would be valuable.

Alan Trench, who drafted a report on behalf of the Wales Governance Centre and the Constitution Unit called Delivering a Reserved Powers Model of Devolution for Wales, said:

“Establishing a Welsh jurisdiction would be a major political decision, and have cost implications if the courts were to be devolved as well”.

We share this view. Our concern is how this can or will be achieved. We cannot allow this Bill to pass to its final stages without setting up a mechanism for further discussions on this vital issue. We owe it to the Welsh Assembly and the people of Wales to begin to sketch out a road map for the future of justice in Wales—a future which will highlight the relevance of the body of Welsh law which exists now and the additional Welsh laws which the Assembly will undoubtedly pass in the future.

I welcome the contents of the Minister’s letter, which I received today, concerning the emerging findings of the Justice in Wales working group. I was particularly pleased to note its anticipated focus on a periodic review of the operation of the justice system under the framework of the Bill, and its likely recommendations on the need to be more effective in considering the distinctiveness of how justice is delivered in Wales.

I am grateful to the Minister for providing further details of the way in which these recommendations will be put into operation. I look forward to reading the details of this debate in Hansard and giving further thought to how the committee that he proposes will operate. I hope he will be able to provide us with further details about the operation of that committee.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, I think this is an occasion on which we should not speak for more than a minute and a half, and that is my intention. I support the Government’s amendment, and I thank the Minister for his consideration, but I make it clear that I regard it as an interim statement—something that will not stand the test of time. As Welsh law develops, the case for a Welsh jurisdiction will become overwhelming. There is an old Welsh song that asks, “Who will be here in a hundred years’ time?”—“Pwy fydd yma mewn can mlynedd?”—and perhaps that is the view that one should take.

At the moment we have a Bill that gives the Assembly reserved powers. The legislative competence of the Assembly is growing, yet we have two different legislatures passing laws for the same small territory. That is a situation unique in the UK and in Europe, and it seems bound to result in confusion and perhaps, in due course, conflict.

The idea of a distinct Welsh jurisdiction is supported by the legal professions in Wales. University law departments see Wales as lacking a legal identity, which actually it had for 300 years after Henry VIII’s Act of Union, so we have to catch up with Henry VIII. The idea is supported strongly by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd; his wording is careful but he has said that it is perfectly possible to have a single justice system with two separate jurisdictions within it. Similar views were expressed by the great Lord Bingham in his work The Rule of Law.

So this is a well-meant interim settlement, a stopgap, that will not last. There is a void in the devolution settlement and eventually we will need a permanent principal settlement, both for the sake of devolution in Wales and, frankly, for the sake of the union of the UK.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I shall raise two short points. One is to commend the Government’s Amendment 1 and the skilled drafting that is revealed by it. However, there is no doubt that the wording that it seeks to replace was too tightly drawn. It looked only at the legislative part of the body of law that makes up, if one likes to put it this way, the body of England and Wales and, looking into the future, following the point by the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, it was designed to follow the law of Wales itself as it built up its own common law. What was missing was an acknowledgement that there is a body of law outside legislation that applies in both jurisdictions as part of the great heritage of the common law that England and Wales has exported around the world. It would be very sad if the common-law element was not accepted. So the word “include”, as the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, pointed out, carries with it a great deal. That is not expressed at length, thank goodness, because, as he put it, the simplicity and exclusivity of the language chosen does it all for us. It is very nice to see simple language being used so effectively in legislation, so this is an excellent amendment and I warmly support it.

As for Amendment 3, I recall long arguments during discussion on the Scotland Bill—which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, may have listened to but I am not sure took part in—when we tried to persuade the Minister, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, to drop the word “normally”, but he refused. The passage that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, quoted from what was said in the Supreme Court last week was just a repetition of the points the noble and learned Lord made in response to those who were seeking to effect that change in the wording.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, I must express our gratitude to the Government for clarifying this position. I also echo the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, in saying that there was some rather neat draftsmanship involved. The officials are to be congratulated on the way that this has clarified the situation.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, I was once vice-chancellor of the University of Wales and I think that this is a distinct improvement. It will strengthen the status of Welsh university institutions and I am grateful for it.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I start by declaring an interest as a governor of Cardiff Metropolitan University. I echo other noble Lords by referring to Amendments 5 and 7; I am really pleased to see that the Government have clarified that they had no intention of changing the status of Welsh universities. It is a status that is rightly prized and valued, not least because it gives them charitable status, which is extremely important from the funding perspective.

Government Amendment 8 deals with the Open University, which the Minister referred to in his remarks. Does he believe that this clarification is adequate and fully addresses the concern of the Open University that it should be seen as operating equally in all four constituent countries? Obviously it would not be seen appropriately as a Welsh institution, but it does not want to be seen as an English institution. It wants to be seen as bestriding all the countries of the United Kingdom. It would therefore be helpful if the Minister could clarify that he believes those concerns are fully addressed.

--- Later in debate ---

One thing is certain: we do not have the information needed to come to a meaningful decision on the water provisions of this Bill. We need to build in a mechanism that can provide us with a further opportunity to return to it when, it is hoped, we have a draft protocol before us and are in a position to make a meaningful decision on the matter.

[Lord Morgan]

My Lords, I very strongly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has just said. To leave these matters uncertain and vague, and potentially as, yet again, a source of future bitter conflict, is quite contrary to what the Minister is doing in the Bill.

Two points occur to me. First, it seems that giving the Assembly authority over water is fully consonant with what we are doing in the rest of the Bill—that is, strengthening the regulatory powers of the Assembly over the natural resources of Wales. Secondly, and perhaps more fundamentally, we are—perhaps unintentionally —bypassing this enormous emotive issue in Wales. I would like it to be felt and seen by the citizens of Wales, who are not always clear on the point, that devolution is making a difference. I would like it to be felt that devolution means that there will be no more Tryweryns in Wales and no more treating with contempt the small rural communities for the benefit of others. I expect the Minister to listen with sympathy and I hope very much that the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will be supported.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, to follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, has just said, I have looked at the government amendments with some care and notice that Amendment 45, which sets out the proposed water protocol, refers to a,

“serious adverse impact on water resources in England, water supply in England or the quality of water in England”,

and, conversely, water resources in Wales. What is not contained there is the impact on the social and environmental character of Wales from any proposal that may be brought forward for the extraction of water from Wales. When the Minister referred to Amendment 44 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley—that the extraction of water from Welsh reservoirs shall require the legislative consent of the National Assembly for Wales—he said that we need not worry about that because there is already environmental law that will protect the people of Wales from the building of reservoirs that would have such an environmental or social impact. I would like the Minister to state quite clearly that there will be no reservoirs built in Wales without the consent of the Welsh Assembly. I think that that must be said. Whether it is due to the existing position or the proposals he has brought forward in these amendments, I do not care. I just want it to be absolutely clear what the position is.

Wales Bill

Lord Morgan Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, having observed the passage of this Bill from the Welsh Marches, as it were, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for the way in which he has led his team through. I want to make one small plea—that he might be enticed to taste the menu put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, regarding that tied vote. I know that it has come at a late stage in the day, but I feel that it has much to commend it.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, I am, I think, the only historian of Wales present, and I think that this has been a historic event and process, for which the Minister and our Front Bench deserve great credit. I am perhaps among the last of the generation of Welsh children who was brought up to regard the House of Lords—to quote the Daily Mail—as the enemy of the people, hostile to the aspirations of the people of Wales on devolution, land, education, church matters and many other issues. It is historic because in this case, of course, the House of Lords has been enormously positive. Many of us were asked by political figures in Wales to be helpful and to try to resolve some of the needless quandaries in the Bill, which purported to extend devolution but in some respects seemed to restrict it, and clear things up. I think that we have succeeded to a considerable extent in so doing. Very important principles have been enunciated, which, again, are historic; particularly those that elevate the status, if not always the powers, of the Welsh Assembly, making them more comparable—although still not comparable—to those of Scotland.

I will not labour the point but, as has been said, we owe thanks to the Minister, who has been extraordinarily helpful and considerate. He has handled this matter in a model way and I conclude by suggesting a new role for him. I believe that one thing we need in all these measures—I recall that this point was made by the noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell and Lord Hunt, as well as by me—is some kind of statement of how they relate to the overarching vision of the union. Just as in the higher education Bill we put in some important points of general principle the other day, I feel that that would be valuable here. We have an unwritten constitution, and so perhaps the best way of achieving this kind of insertion would be to have a constitutional supremo to take it over. I can think of no Member of the Government more qualified to act in that, at the moment, untested role than the Minister. I thank him very much.