House of Lords: Allowances

Lord Monson Excerpts

Tuesday 20th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord MacKenzie of Culkein]

My Lords, I support the resolutions before us but have some sympathy with the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond. I was particularly surprised to note that there was no provision for first-class travel on sleeper trains. Many years ago, I got on to a sleeper train in Taunton, Somerset, where a rather drunken fellow countryman of mine insisted that I shared his cans of lager through most of the trip. After that, nobody in my organisation ever travelled second class on a sleeper train. I hope that the House Committee will look at that measure.

I support the changes proposed today, despite the fact that I am one of the losers. Noble Lords might ask why I do so, given that some provisions appear to be manifestly unfair. I live in Scotland but acquired a house in London solely for the purpose of attending this place. I go back to the decisions we made here on 22 March, when we approved the House Committee’s third report. At first blush, the decision on what constituted a principal residence seemed most reasonable. As my noble friend Lord Sewel said, it seemed straightforward and perfectly sensible—that is, the place where you spend most of your nights at weekends and during recesses. I too thought that was reasonable until I looked at the guidance for declaring one’s principal residence, which asks where you will spend most nights at weekends and during recesses in the forthcoming year.

I had considered going to Australia this summer for six to eight weeks. I have a brother in Melbourne, a brother-in-law in Sydney and a stepson in Perth—three very different parts of that very large continent. Given that I am in my 71st year, I am not going to see them that often so I thought that I would spend some time there. As I did not want to do anything that put me in breach of the Code of Conduct, or required me to appear before the commissioner, I rang the finance department to check that my travel plans would not cause any difficulty. The staff said that that was one of the things which would be looked at in a meeting that afternoon. I called back two or three weeks later and was told that they had not yet reached a final decision and were still considering the matter, but that their first thoughts were that my plans would go against me. Presumably, that means that I could not count my Scottish home—my home where I have lived for the past 10 years—as my principal residence and therefore could not claim travel expenses either.

I do not blame the staff in the finance department, who were most helpful. They have to work within the decisions that we make on the Floor of this House. This is clearly a classic case of the law of unintended consequences. However, it is one of the reasons I support the proposals before us, as they would remove all the opportunities for that sort of bureaucratic decision-making and for the denizens of the local press to check with my neighbours whether I have been seen at my principal residence over the whole of the summer. I certainly do not want that sort of nonsense; I do not think that any of us do. Several noble Lords have raised similar concerns.

I look forward to this House supporting the Motions before us. Let us accept them and see whether they have any effect on the pattern of attendance at this House. If they do, they will have to be revisited. However, in the mean time, I am pleased to support them.

[Lord Monson]

My Lords, I agree with a great deal of the argument proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, although I do not claim overnight allowance. I agree with his argument about fairness—or absence of fairness, as the case may be—and with his contention that the proposed changes will not, as is hoped, satisfy elements of the media or the public.

I turn briefly to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. Can the Leader of the House confirm that the proposed £300 and £150 are maximum daily allowances and that if a Member on a particular day felt that the amount of time, effort and expense incurred justified only a slightly smaller claim—say £120 or £100 —he or she would be free to make that claim and would not be faced with a choice between £150 and nothing at all?

[Lord Graham of Edmonton]

My Lords, I support the recommendations and fully recognise that colleagues on all sides of the House are not only entitled to but are justified in making their comments, especially from their own experience. I have been a Member of this House for more than 25 years, and until the past 18 months I never dreamt that there were different interpretations of the rules. I am not an expert, but I was told what I could claim and I have claimed it. Yet I have been astounded to find that colleagues, whose integrity I do not impugn, have interpreted the rules differently.

Colleagues in the House have gone through the past 18 months fearing that they will accidentally find themselves in trouble when they are not trouble-makers—and I very much sympathise with my noble friend Lady Symons. That is in part due to the various anomalies and blemishes in our arrangements, as has been explained by various experts and keepers of our conscience, from the Clerk of the Parliaments downwards. I pay full tribute to all my colleagues around the House. I look at the Leader; he and I have sparred for 25 years. None of us has lost any weight, we are still standing, and we are still here. From the Leader downwards—I say that with no disrespect to anyone—colleagues have had not only to wait until today but to grapple with finding a solution. What we have before us is their idea of a solution. I am sure that the Leader and his colleagues will understand that there will be a need to revisit the issue in light of what has been said by a number of colleagues.

As far as I am concerned, I am not wedded to either the past or the future. I accept that what we are looking at is the product of our good friends who help to lead us in one way or another. However, we are entitled to dignity and respect from outside the House for what we try to do. We know that it is terribly difficult to measure who is a good Member, who is not and who attends every day. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, said that he is able to give 60 or 70 days a year here and, when he is here, he makes his presence felt. But others are able to attend more or less every day. We are all on the same level as far as integrity is concerned, and we are all entitled to weigh up our responsibilities in light of the great honour given to us by our party leaders, et cetera. The one thing that sticks in my craw is that collectively colleagues from all around the House, who without exception are good and honourable, have had to carry the burden of a nasty campaign waged through the press. At the end of the day we know that, whatever decision we take, we will be subject to exploitation and criticism by the press and others.

We are here to look at the benefits of the proposals and the extent to which our colleagues are saying, “This is what we think is a fair and equitable system”. I respect very much the point of view put by my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and others that noble Lords will lose out. As far as I am concerned, we will all be winners if we accept the Leader’s recommendations, and I wish them well.