Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Lord McKenzie of Luton Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

1: Clause 4, page 3, line 17, at end insert—
“( ) the scheme’s member engagement strategy.”

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, this revisits an amendment debated in Committee and requires the scheme’s member-engagement strategy to be one of the pieces of information that must be submitted to the Pensions Regulator as part of the application for authorisation. As such, it would then sit alongside the scheme and the scheme funder’s latest accounts—incidentally, that assumes there are some. In a start-up situation there may not be. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that—the business plan and the continuity strategy. The latter, of course, addresses how the interests of members are to be protected if a triggering event occurs.

As was argued in Committee, understanding members’ views and needs is essential to designing investment strategies and to the assessment of value for members. Such engagement ought to be an essential component of designing a pension scheme and an integral part of its creation and continuance.

The DC guide sets out that good member communications provided at the right time and in the right format are vital if members are to engage and make decisions that lead to good outcomes for them in retirement. As the code reminds us, there are a number of ways in which the views and needs of members can be determined. It recommends choosing methods that are appropriate and proportionate depending on the size of the scheme and available resources. Included in the techniques which might be employed are member surveys, running workshops, holding member AGMs—although we left that degree of flexibility out of this amendment—focus groups and forums, and regular member panels.

In Committee, my noble friend Lord Monks referred to the challenges of encouraging the member voice to be at the top of the agenda. He was speaking of his experience of a master trust with some 1 million members and 20,000 employers—a different proposition from engaging with perhaps just a few thousand members and a handful of employers. As the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, has reminded us, we are dealing with schemes where the risk is with the members—the employees—which therefore necessitates their effective engagement.

On Second Reading, and repeated in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Young—the Minister—expressed his support for the principle of member engagement. At col. 1758 of Hansard of 21 November, he expressed “a lot of sympathy” with the rationale behind the amendment then tabled. We hope that, on reflection, he might be moved a little further and is now able to accept it. The thrust of the noble Lord’s reason for rejecting the proposition appeared to be that there are comprehensive statutory requirements covering communications with members as well as guidance from the regulator and the Bill is not about stipulating how trustees should run an excellent scheme, and that they should have discretion about how they go about member engagement, provided, that is, that communications requirements which already apply are met.

This amendment does not seek to impose any particular approach to engagement on trustees, but it would mean that they would have the opportunity to lay out for the regulator how it is proposed to go about the task, and to demonstrate an understanding of the requirements and how in fact they are to be met in the particular circumstances of each master trust. It would be wrong to see engagement and communication as just a routine matter, especially given the scale of some of the existing master trust operations and given developing technologies. It seems a little odd that the regulator is required under the Bill to assess whether a range of persons are fit and proper; to take a view on whether any particular master trust scheme is financially sustainable and receive a business plan for this purpose; to decide on whether the systems and processes to be used are sufficient to be run effectively; and to determine whether a scheme has an adequate continuity strategy to address the interests of members in the event of a triggering event. However, it can look aside from whether a scheme has an effective member engagement strategy, as it can assume that statutory requirements and regulator guidance will be followed. Frankly, this seems a bit thin.

To accept this amendment would be a very clear demonstration to the sector of the importance placed upon member engagement. At the end of the day, the members are the very people the schemes are supposed to support. What is the downside in accepting this amendment? I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

Having said that, and given the assurances about the scope of the automatic enrolment review and the intention to use regulations under Clause 11 to assess the adequacy of the scheme’s systems and processes related to member communications and engagement, I hope noble Lords will feel reassured that the Government understand the importance of this matter. Against that background, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that response. It ended up a lot more positive than when it started and where it looked as though it was heading originally.

The noble Lord reiterated what he said at an earlier point in our deliberations about statutory guidance being met. My question was going to be: “How does the regulator know that that guidance is being met”? I think the answer is, from the processes under Clause 11 and what he said about systems and processes requirements. I am grateful for that.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for his support. I look forward to further deliberations on the auto-enrolment consultation, which we will come to, presumably, in the new year. Having said that and noting what is just ahead, at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, obviously I welcome the Minister’s amendments, which are a very appropriate response to our discussions in Committee. The compromise that he has struck is useful—and not just in these circumstances. It is actually not a bad idea for legislation to start adopting some of these things because it might avoid some of the tensions we have seen in the past in social security legislation in terms of trying to get access to the secondary legislation. Taking the first regulations under the affirmative procedure is an excellent way out of the problem we saw in Committee.

The timetable that the Minister has laid out is very reassuring and gives people an idea of what to expect in terms of the consultation and the timeframe available. I understand Amendment 24. I know that such provision has been used previously in pensions legislation, but Ministers at the Dispatch Box will be well advised to note that this clause will be particularly carefully looked at not just by the House committees that scrutinise these matters but by the usual suspects on the Back Benches who crawl over the fine print of these things. If the use of such procedure is deemed to be inappropriate, the negative procedure is always available to us to make sure that there is no abuse of the powers taken under Amendment 24. Otherwise, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the rest of us are doing quite well so far. I hope that we can keep up this strike rate for the rest of Report.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the introduction of these amendments, which are very welcome. He has been true to his word and we thank him for taking us through the process of dealing with the regulations. One of our criticisms of the Bill was the plethora of regulation-making powers therein contained without the prospect of sight of even drafts of such regulations by the time we had to conclude our deliberations.

It was for this reason that we sought to strengthen the parliamentary process for this secondary legislation by subjecting it to the affirmative regulation procedure. The Government are meeting us part way on this matter by requiring in some key areas that the affirmative procedure apply to the first regulations made under various provisions. As we have heard, the changes apply to fit and proper person requirements, financial sustainability, the business plan, systems and process, continuity strategies and significant events.

We have also had the benefit of briefings with the Minister and the Bill team, which have aided our understanding of the regime and how it is meant to operate in respect of a range of issues including non-money purchase benefits, significant events, tax and pause orders and connected employers. As our continuing amendments should signal, we are not in total accord with the Bill as it stands and consider further change desirable.

As to the Henry VIII clause introduced by Amendment 24, the Minister is right that we discussed it before it was laid and I was grateful for that opportunity to engage. We are not enamoured generally of such provisions, particularly when they emerge at the tail end of our deliberations. As originally explained to us, they will be constrained by being used only to make the implementation of the regulations effective. In the event, they seem to go further than that. I wonder whether the Minister might comment. We recognise also that these types of provision have been used by Governments of all persuasions.

We recognise the complexity of the provisions in the Bill as well as the agility of the sector in adapting to change and sometimes circumventing it. Our own scrutiny of the Bill has caused us to conclude that the primary legislation is not in perfect shape even after being improved by our amendments, but until the detail of the regulations has been consulted on, it is difficult to foresee in every respect ideally what changes might have been appropriate. This is notwithstanding the flexibility that the Government have already taken for themselves; for example, in Clause 39.

For us, the imperative is to see a fit-for-purpose Bill on the statute book as quickly as possible. We will therefore not oppose this amendment.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships for your understanding. I thank again the whole House and its committees, which made the point forcefully about making all these substantial regulations subject to the negative procedure. This was an occasion where we went back. There was a good suggestion—I am sure it was from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie—that we should do it the first time via the affirmative procedure. I am with the noble Lord on this in thinking that that is a pretty smart way of doing this kind of legislation, because one can really clog up Parliament with affirmatives. I have to do quite a few of them and really, when one looks at them, it is overkill. This compromise may be something that we can look at becoming more of an institution in future. Let us just see on that.

On the power in Clause 37 and the pointed question put by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about its use, I assure noble Lords that that power is narrow in scope. It will be limited to consequential amendments to allow for necessary technical fixes. It will apply only to existing legislation and legislation passed in this Session. Just to make it absolutely clear, it can be used to amend primary legislation but only in this consequential context to allow necessary amendments to make the Bill work.

I am grateful for the understanding of the House on all these amendments—the last of them in particular. I beg to move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I do not want to prolong this but may I just check one point? The noble Lord said that the Henry VIII provisions would be used only in respect of Acts passed in this same Session of Parliament. The wording sent to me says,

“an Act passed before or in the same session as this Act”.

Could the Minister clarify that?

[Lord Freud]

To make it clear, it incorporates legislation that now exists and the legislation that we will prospectively pass with this Bill.