Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations 2013

Lord McKenzie of Luton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

It is still a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness because she made a point that I was going to make. I want to make two remarks on which I would like the Minister to reflect. The first is about the contributory system—the national insurance system. In the middle of last year, I remember listening with great attention to a lecture given by a valued friend, Malcolm Wicks, who sadly died recently. He was a great defender of the national contributory system. He gave a lecture on how he melded the concept of citizenship with the national insurance principle. He said that this involved a lifetime longitudinal commitment both ways between the state and the individual, with people paying in and people taking out, and that people understood that. He was an exponent of that all his life and I certainly miss his good counsel and wisdom. I share his view. We cannot allow these regulations to pass without remarking that this is another notch down in the diminishing of the national insurance principle. I regret that. I understand why the Government are doing it because otherwise the misalignment would be confusing. If you are introducing universal credit, I understand the rationale and it makes perfect sense. However, universal credit does not have the advantage that the national insurance contributory principle had of giving a longer-term relationship between the state and the individual. I want to put that on the record in passing.

Secondly, conditionality for people who are paying national insurance contributions suggests to me that people should perhaps pay less because they now have to submit themselves to sanctions. I have a strong view on sanctions and earlier today the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, reflected some of that. I take the Paul Gregg view that sanctions are positive only if you can get the full commitment of the individual who might be potentially taking on a jobseeker’s commitment that will lead to sanctions, and if they feel that they are in charge of the process. That is not the case with the system of conditionality as it is currently cast, although with a bit of flexibility it might be amended in that direction to put people in a position where they feel they are more in control of what is going on. They are then much more likely to understand the rationale of a sanction being applied to them. That is work in progress. I hope it will be part of the careful evaluation that the Minister explained to us earlier this afternoon the Government will undertake.

My points really comprise two moans about national insurance that I am getting off my chest. I do not expect the Government to do anything about it. However, these regulations change things in a way that is significant for the future of the national insurance system. Indeed, perhaps in the long term, once universal credit gets into a steady state, the Government of the day—whoever they may be—may want to ask themselves whether it is sensible to continue to have a residual diminishing national insurance contributory principle set of benefits running alongside universal credit. I am agnostic about that but I certainly think that it needs to be recognised in this important debate.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. I am fully supportive of the probing that my noble friend Lady Donaghy has done, particularly around the construction sector, on which she is very knowledgeable. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, that, given the increasing demise of the contributory principle, it is important to consider how we re-establish that in this context, if we can. Of course, there has been an accelerated demise in various benefits. We shall talk about contributory ESA in a moment, but that is now payable for just one year and JSA is generally payable for just six months.

The Minister explained that these regulations refer just to contributory JSA and not to earnings-related JSA. I believe that he referred to my next point in introducing the regulations but, to be clear, I understand that as regards the entitlement under these arrangements, the national insurance contribution rules remain exactly the same as they are at the moment. In respect of national insurance credits, under current circumstances these can be obtained when the claimant satisfies the qualifying conditions for JSA, when he or she is not in work and earning. Will the Minister remind us what the credit and entitlement will be under universal credit when JSA is no longer with us? The Explanatory Memorandum recites that the rules for contributory entitlement are, except for the conditionality and sanctions regimes on which the Minister touched, “largely” unchanged. Will he particularise a little any other significant changes outside those two areas? As regards the alignment of the conditionality and sanctions regimes, we obviously see the merit of this and these regulations give us an opportunity to explore further how that actually works across the three benefits, including ESA.

Like others, I am grateful to Gingerbread, which briefed us on this matter, particularly as regards its focus on lone parent flexibilities, which was touched on extensively in our earlier debate. I will not go over that again except to say that I think the Minister said in response to the debate that 10 out of the 12 lone parent flexibilities are being carried forward, albeit in guidance rather than in regulations. I apologise if he covered this point earlier, but will he remind us which two are not being carried forward? We are aware that he has been pressed on flexibilities and that these should be set out clearly in the claimant commitment so that both the adviser and the single parent claimant can share the same understanding of what the regulations and guidance say about balancing work conditionality with caring responsibilities. It is understood that the noble Lord’s colleague in another place was sympathetic to this. Perhaps the Minister can say whether he agrees. It seems an ideal way of ensuring that all concerned are clear on the matter and it would help to focus the minds of advisers who may not always be up to date with the range of flexibilities available.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I again thank noble Lords for a somewhat briefer debate although the quality remained high. Clearly, I do not have to remind the House what these regulations do. They remove the income-related element and make provision for an award of JSA based solely on national insurance contributions.

I will touch on some of the questions that were raised. I start with the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy. She brought some matters to the discussion which are entirely irrelevant to this set of regulations, thereby rather skilfully avoiding the shorter answers that I suspect would have been given in the previous debate, given the pressure of time. I therefore take my hat off to her. She made one or two very valuable suggestions, which I have stolen from her, as she knows. I shall go on doing that. There are some interesting issues on timing. For example, do we have the luxury of time with the self-employed? I am very conscious that we may get the odd one or two people coming in, who I suspect are probably not on the pathfinder, because one of the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, teased me on as regards our exclusions was that they made this provision difficult for a self-employed couple to obtain. We therefore have a little time plus the six-months’ grace. Given that we are starting with people probably even in the next phase who are coming in and will find a self-employed job, we would give them the year. All I am saying is that I am absolutely conscious of the noble Baroness’s main point relating to the one-month period and the need for a carryover. I have been looking at that closely, and what she said gave me a good hint about how long that carryover should last, which in her view should be a year. Noble Lords will be pleased to know that that is the kind of period that I am currently exploring.

I am talking to Defra, which is working with the NFU, on how all this works for farmers generally, and so I am very conscious of that issue. As regards the point on the construction industry, which is one of the more interesting industries, what I heard from the noble Baroness was, “Don’t get a Catch-22 situation here about people because of the way we define things”. That is a good point and one of the benefits of guidance is that we can quite flexibly get that in. I commit here to making sure that in that guidance we do not have a Catch-22 situation for this industry which I know has some odd things. If you are working, it should not matter how the position is actually defined if people are making the effort. I will look at that matter seriously.

We have dealt with the irrelevant stuff and I will now move on to the points made by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood. It is interesting, when you look at the figures, that of the approximately 1.5 million on income-related JSA or UC, only 200,000 receive the contracted amount that we are talking about, based on their contributions. Of those, only 70,000 receive it on its own, without a UC or income-related top-up. We have therefore moved a long way into means-testing, as my noble friend observed.

My noble friend’s point about feeling in control was smack right. You do not get a response of the kind that you want if people do not feel part of it. If they do not understand and have not been part of the process that has generated it, the sanction will not work as well and create the right behavioural response. That is what the claimant commitment is doing. Interestingly, the early trials of the claimant commitment are finding that it is working much better than our existing contract.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked me for another guarantee. I will give the noble Baroness a guarantee that any changes to the ESA and JSA as part of UC would require regulations. There will therefore be a chance to debate that. As to the point about having a contributor on a different platform, the reality is that any Government looking ahead would want to have as few platforms as possible. One will probably end up with the same platform but approval of the process of who gets paid and how would have to go through this House.

In response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the two areas that were not carried forward were those where the time allowance to attend an interview was moved from seven days to 48 hours. Claimants with children over the age of 13 are expected to show that they have reasonable prospects of getting a job, but they can still have tailored requirements in line with their caring responsibilities. Those are the two specific changes. Regarding the point about national insurance credits, everyone on universal credit will have national insurance credits that count towards the state pension. The difference is that there are class 3 credits for UC, whereas JSA claimants currently get class 1 credits.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Will the Minister drop me a line on the point he made about class 1 and class 3 contributions? I should like to reflect on it because I am not sure that I understood the import of it.

[Lord Freud]

Yes, I would be pleased to provide a letter laying that out for the noble Lord to consider in depth.

We started last year to align the JSA regime and universal credit with the sanctions model. These changes pull them even closer together. We will thereby have a clearer system of requirements and sanctions that are robust and appropriate, underpinned by safeguards for claimants. I seek approval of the regulations and commend them to the House.