Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Search, Seizure and Detention of Property: Code of Practice) (Northern Ireland) Order 2024

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Morrow

Monday 2nd December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, first, I apologise for my earlier indiscretion; I thought my phone was on silent but it was not.

I am looking at the extension of powers in relation to restraint orders. I hope that it is as good as what it says here; in fact, I would like it to be even better because, in the past, we have often been the victims. In saying this, I am not casting aspersions on anyone sitting here today, but we have been the victims of political restraints. We often find that, if it is not politically expedient for things to happen, they do not happen. I hope that, as a result of what we are hearing here today and this draft statutory instrument, that will not be the case.

In paragraph 13 of the code of practice, which is headed “Extension of powers in relation to restraint orders”, we are told—I have no problem with this—that this measure will align Northern Ireland more with the United Kingdom. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly said, we have too much unalignment at times. If this is implemented—it is a sincere piece of work—we can look to better days. In the past, in Northern Ireland, bordering the Republic of Ireland, there has always been this element of smuggling from one territory to another; some people have gotten very wealthy on it. I just hope and trust that, when this SI comes into force, there will be co-operation between the security forces on both sides of the border to bring this scandalous activity to an end.

In the past, in terms of government, there has been too much of us turning our heads and looking the other way; it is a feature that happens here. I trust that that is going to cease and that we will no longer have to tolerate an activity that, to put it mildly and succinctly, is illegal criminality—as well as everything that goes along with it—happening on our borders. I hope that this instrument will go some distance, if not the full distance; I would like it to go the full distance but, if it does not, I welcome the fact that, as is mentioned here, there will be a genuine effort to stamp these criminals out and take them out of activity, no matter whom that hurts. In the past, it has perhaps not been politically expedient to do that, so I ask the Minister to assure us that that will not be given any account as a result of this instrument here.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I, too, will welcome the Minister’s reply. I regard him, as I have done for many years, as a friend; I am delighted, therefore, that he is here answering our questions. May I make a statement? First, it is so important to put anything that makes life more difficult for criminals on the statute book because no one should benefit from criminality, irrespective of where they may come from.

The truth is that criminals always seem to be ahead of the game and Governments always seem to be catching up. No matter how far you go, criminals’ skills and craft to carry on their criminal activity seem without bounds. Therefore, we have to do all we can to ensure that their programme is impeded.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said that the code is not as yet drawn up, but I noticed that paragraph 5.7 of the Explanatory Memorandum says, “The codes require”. If they are not drawn up, how can they require? It says:

“The codes require an officer who is contemplating using the powers to consider the impact on the community in their use, balanced against the public interest and the benefit the use of the powers would add to the case”.


My noble friend Lord Morrow, mentioned that point. This is what concerns me because, as my noble friend pointed out, we had this scourge in the past: if it somehow impacted on a particular community, you did not act. People were therefore not only surprised by the authorities’ inactivity but annoyed because it seemed that they could act if it was a different community but, in a certain community, they did not. I want the Minister to assure me that, when it comes to this statutory instrument, no officer will be compelled

“to consider the impact on the community in their use, balanced against the public interest”,

because criminals do not care who they impact on. Therefore, we have to ensure that their programme is impeded and that the proceeds of their crime are taken.

Paragraph 6.1 of the EM says:

“POCA provides powers to recover the proceeds of crime”.


Can the Minister clarify where the proceeds of crime go when they are seized? Who benefits from the proceeds that are seized? Knowing exactly where the proceeds go is important.

The last thing I want to draw attention to is paragraph 7.2, which says:

“On the codes generally, law enforcement agencies’ responses requested clarification of certain definitions in the legislation and additional guidance on the practical operation of the powers to seize cryptoassets and related items”.


I would like the Minister to clarify whether these clarifications on the definitions were requested by the people who responded. Has proper clarification of certain definitions in the legislation and guidance been given?

Finally, it is right to say that the resource implication is so important, because we know that we do not have sufficient officers to carry out policing on the ground in Northern Ireland. We are well below the target that was said to be necessary to police Northern Ireland. I do not want resources to be taken from that and put into this; rather, money needs to be given to ensure that we have the proper agency to tackle those who carry on with criminal activity.

Terrorism Act 2000 (Alterations to the Search Powers Code for Northern Ireland) Order 2024

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Morrow

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

I welcome the fact that the Minister made clear her support for, and paid tribute to, the Police Service of Northern Ireland. As I am sure she is acutely aware, the RUCGC lost more than 300 of its officers during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Many of the officers who were murdered were the salt of the earth. They were in their job not because it was a job but because they saw it as a vocation. To this day, for many of those who were murdered, nobody has been brought to court to give an account of their actions. I thank the Minister for her tribute to the people in the police service, who are often forgotten.

Over the weekend, many of us—if not all—attended various services in open spaces, in our churches, in our schools and elsewhere to pay tribute to those who died during the Troubles in Northern Ireland and those who served in both world wars. As members read out the roll of honour, they were very moved because stood shoulder to shoulder with those very police officers and UDR personnel with whom they served. One of them said, “I stand here today; my comrades do not”. That is the reality of the situation back in Northern Ireland.

We will be brief—we do not plan to have a tough debate on this legislation. We are not here to pull it apart or anything like that, but we have some queries and questions here and there. I am sure the Minister is acutely aware that policing is a very difficult job in Northern Ireland. From the inception of the Belfast agreement, its stipulations and outworkings have meant that hundreds and hundreds of dangerous and unrepentant terrorists have been returned back to our streets, and today they are at large.

It is stated that the purpose of the code is to provide clarity that the threshold for making an authorisation is higher under the new powers, and that the way in which the powers may be exercised is also different. I hope we have read that correctly and that the outworking will not curtail or restrict the police in Northern Ireland in carrying out their duties. No police force anywhere in Europe is scrutinised to the degree and extent that ours is. Now, that can be a good thing, but it can also have a detrimental impact on policing itself.

I and my colleagues speak for my party on this, and we agree that there has to be accountability and that the police must always act with great discretion and responsibility. I hope that this legislation will not in any way deter them. I do not think it will, but I hope it is that way. All of us have a moral and community responsibility to support and encourage the agencies of law and order. That includes, for instance, our Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive attending graduation days, and our schools promoting the police service as a good career to follow and get involved in. That does not always happen. I sometimes think that the Government could do a bit more to encourage that line. That would go a long way to playing a good part in the full restoration of law and order.

Things are infinitely better than they were—we can all say that without fear of contradiction. However, the Minister rightly said that the threat level in Northern Ireland is still high. Other police services across the United Kingdom do not have to contend with that to the same extent as our police service in Northern Ireland. I hope that there is no discouragement in this document, which I have tried to read through, although I will not give the impression—I hope—that I understand every line of it. The Minister briefly quoted from the Terrorism Act 2000, the workings of which she is obviously well acquainted with.

Can the Minister assure us that this measure will be for the betterment and the more efficient delivery of a police service, and that those who try to thwart the police in their duties—the very people she has spoken about—and cause a great deal of concern will not benefit from this? I know that that is not the intention, and I am not in any way saying that it is. I just hope that the security forces, our police, will see that this is intended to help them deliver a duty and service that they can be proud of. I hope too that the law-abiding in Northern Ireland will be reassured that this legislation is good and for their betterment, and that we will see an efficient and effective outworking.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I will follow on from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. I welcome the noble Baroness leading this short debate to her place. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Caine, for the manner in which he dealt with issues of security in Northern Ireland when he held the office. I believe that he did so with courage and determination—he carried a heavy responsibility when he was in the noble Baroness’s position.

I join the noble Baroness in commending the bravery of our police officers and all the other security personnel who not only defended freedom in Northern Ireland in the past but are still doing so. I totally reject the contention of some in society that there was no other way than terrorism. That is absolutely untrue. I note that the noble Baroness said that the terrorist threat remains “substantial”. That reminds us that there is a great need in Northern Ireland to keep vigilant. Securing the safety of our people will certainly demand vigilance.

The noble Baroness mentioned the additional finance that has been given. It is certainly correct that additional finance has been provided in the recent Budget, and it is deeply appreciated, but I draw to her attention the fact that the number of serving police officers in Northern Ireland is well below what was recommended. We therefore do not have the numbers of police officers on the ground to give that adequate and proper protection for the people of Northern Ireland.

I am sure that the noble Baroness was delighted to remind us that our political party welcomed this legislation. In fact, she said that we were the only party that responded, which is strange, bearing in mind that the security of our people ought to be one of the most important issues that we face. I join the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, in saying that the police service in Northern Ireland is practically the most scrutinised police service in the world. In fact, unbelievably, we have former terrorists sitting on the Policing Board, scrutinising persons they have terrorised in the past.

We want an efficient delivery of policing, and I will therefore ask the noble Baroness a few questions. I note that the purpose of this code is to

“reflect that changes to Terrorism Act 2000 powers entirely replace those previously found in sections 44-47 of Act and are not simply a modification of those provisions”.

But the code then says that the

“new provisions carry different criteria for both authorisation and use”—

in fact, it is stricter. Paragraph 3.3 of the code says:

“To provide clarity that the threshold for making an authorisation is higher under the new powers and the way in which the powers may be exercised is also different”.


If it is higher and we still have a substantial threat in Northern Ireland, surely that makes it more difficult, rather than allowing police officers to have the freedom they need when they are out on duty and dealing with possible terrorists.

Paragraph 4.3 says:

“This Code of practice must be readily available at all police stations for consultation by police officers, detained persons and members of the public”.


I am wondering what is meant by “available … for consultation” by police officers, detained persons and members of the public, because surely these are the guidelines that are already set down—the consultation part is over.

Then, paragraph 6.2 of this document states that, for the police officer dealing with this, having “reasonable grounds for suspicion” depends

“on the circumstances in each case”.

How should an officer faced with an immediate situation actually interpret “reasonable grounds for suspicion”? If they fall foul of what a court later says is not reasonable, are they penalised because of that?