Health and Care Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I always enjoy listening to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, because he has an absolutist way of delivering his ideas. But his ideas here have prompted other noble Lords to a very sensible suggestion that we need to look further at this.

We have to look at this question with great compassion —compassion for women who feel uncomfortable and compassion for women who are trans. We all know that, sometimes, people are born with mixed chromosomes. It is not black and white. It is a very complex issue. The suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath—I see the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, nodding —must be the right way forward. It needs to be looked at with great care and in great detail, by people who know what they are talking about.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others. I was here for 20 years during the struggle for single-sex wards, and it was a notable achievement of the Benches opposite that they got there. I remember, in those long debates, getting a real understanding of the distress that women felt at being made to suffer in mixed-sex wards. I do not think it is right to destroy all that just in the cause of a small group of patients.

The rights of women need to be considered alongside those of trans people. Both matter, both are important, and we should not, as Stonewall has sought to do, bend the law to impossible interpretations and impose that covertly on the National Health Service. We should try openly to discuss this difficult issue and arrive at a compassionate solution that does our very best for all patients. I have faith that if the Minister promises that, we will get that.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used the important word “contention”—a contention that there is a tension between the rights of women and those of trans women. He and I disagree about that because I believe that they both deserve to be treated properly and respectfully. I believe that the Equality Act enables that to happen.

It is that Act which enables there to be single-sex provision. It is precisely because there are occasions and times when it is important for that to happen that we have to embody it in law, otherwise it could not exist. That is why under the Equality Act there is a specific statement that there should be safeguards in place, that there are special circumstances where treatment needs to be sex-specific, and that where it is assessed that a trans person should be put in an otherwise gendered ward, such departures are allowed but they need to be proportionate to achieving “a legitimate aim”. Like my noble friend Lady Brinton, I do not believe that making assumptions about a person because of the way they look is a legitimate aim.

I have listened carefully to all the speeches that have been made, and they have contained some very powerful contentions and assertions. What they have not contained is any evidence at all that this is a significant problem in the NHS. The amendments would cause a significant problem in the NHS—for all patients, not just trans patients, if one thinks through the implications of what has been written in them.

Day to day, NHS staff routinely have to deal with patients of all sorts, with all sorts of difficult problems, and as professionals they make judgments day in, day out about what is appropriate care. Unless and until there is significant evidence that backs up the assertions and contentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, and the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I believe we should leave them with the guidance that has worked perfectly well up till now.