Non-Domestic Rating (Lists) (No. 2) Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome both Bills. I completely support the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in what he said. When we are reforming the rating system, we absolutely need to follow the money and move in the wake of Amazon, and make sure that, at least where we can bite it, which is its distribution centres, it is paying a proper rate of tax. It is important that we look at the effect our tax system has on our businesses and that we do not disadvantage native UK businesses and advantage overseas ones, as we have been doing for years in our VAT system.

It is also important that, when it comes to rate relief measures, we look at exactly who needs the relief. As the noble Lord may know, I am saddened that the Government have excluded a category of businesses from the Covid rate relief, specifically those such as suppliers to exhibitions, which have to maintain large premises so that they can have a business when exhibitions resume again—maybe this year, but maybe not—but which are still subject to the full business rates arrangements.

I want to spend my time today on the lavatories Bill and support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said. Indeed, I was cheering through the noble Baroness’s speech. We need public lavatories in town centres. Think of what life would be like if there were none. It ought to be one of the Government’s underlying objectives to encourage their provision.

That the Government are relieving the rates on separate buildings that are just lavatories is good, but the most effective way of providing a public lavatory is in conjunction with a business. The loos in Victoria Station are there because the railway wants to look after its customers, and it is the same for the loos in John Lewis, restaurants, hotels and anywhere else that one might make use of them. These are the provisions that we ought to be encouraging. That the intricacies of the current rating system do not seem to offer any obvious way of saying that the value added to a building by including a public lavatory should not affect the rateable value of the building is no reason why we should not do our best, conversationally in Committee on the Bill, to get real legislation when we get rating reform to make sure that the provision of this public service is not something that we then tax.

Also, if we are giving rate relief to public lavatories, we should do so with some conditions, and there should be something in the Bill that allows the Government to impose those conditions.

Coming back specifically to what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, a proper quantity of provision of separate women’s toilet facilities is absolutely crucial. She demonstrated in great detail why that is true, and I support everything she said. I shall be introducing an amendment in Committee to enable the Government, should they so wish, to impose conditions to say that a toilet would be zero-rated for rates only if it matched the conditions required by the Government.