Localism Bill

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, I have waited very patiently because my name is not added to any of those amendments, but I support the amendments tabled by my noble friends. I will pick up on what the Minister said to us earlier. In some ways it was a shame that my noble friend Lord Cameron was not allowed to express his broader concerns on the whole of this section. My noble friend quite rightly said that the Government have it in mind to introduce a right of appeal, so clearly they recognise that the Bill, as currently laid down, is far from satisfactory, and that we will get a compensation scheme later. My question to the Minister is: how soon will we have sight of what a compensation scheme might be, or when will we know what right of appeal will be formally moved hopefully between now and Report?

I have a farm in Suffolk that is listed in my interests here, but in this particular context I have no interests that are particularly relevant to this. However, I was formerly one of the patrons of ViRSA, which the noble Lady, Baroness Thornton will recognise. We dealt for many years with post offices being squeezed and unable to make a living in support of their long-term well-being—we are talking here of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. In his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, clarified quite well the difficulties that we face with this Bill. Are we talking about the loss of a facility that is established within one’s own community, or are we in fact looking at a facility, such as a post office, that is also someone’s dwelling place? Those are two very different issues, and my noble friend, when she comes to wind up, might perhaps enlarge upon that because it is crucial that we know exactly where we stand. For example, in some areas that I know, post offices that have been under threat have managed to relocate into shops, churches, or wherever. Provided that we keep them, it is very good that they have been enabled to remain and be a vibrant part of that particular community. To me, therefore, there is a great difference between a particular service that is offered and the buildings in which it is set. This has been touched on, but I would like the Minister to address that particularly.

My noble friends also expressed concern about land, and to a certain extent about personal privacy, and about investigations that could be made under the proposals in this section of the Bill that would also worry me. We know only too well of investigations of things that are held on computer disks and things that get moved around. Some of this might not be well held in the public domain, to be honest. This is the balance that we have to get right in the Bill. I support the Bill. As I said earlier on, I am a great believer in localism in its truest sense and from the lowest level. Noble Lords who have not heard me say before will hear me say now that, at the parish level, whether in cities or in country areas, localism is most important.

To pick up on a point made earlier, within local councils, authorities or parishes, there will be different interpretations of how they want to proceed. Again, I would be glad if the Minister could reflect on that in her response.

Lastly, I am concerned—not from my point of view, because we have no interest in it—that that could well have an effect on the land value or the land market of people's private, individual holdings. I hope that the Government will reflect on that.

As I said at the beginning, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Hanham for her statement on inheritance and gifts between families and trusts and considering the question of the holding for a limited time if those assets are bid for. I cannot see any reason why you would bid if you are not going to buy. There is no logic.

[Lord Lucas]

Price.

[Baroness Byford]

As my noble friend says, it would be the price, but one is not going to bid for something unless one has the ultimate purpose of wanting to buy.

I, too, am sorry that we are discussing this very important part of the Bill at this time of night, but we are. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and seek clarification from the Minister on many of the points made, which I fear will make us rather late finishing tonight. I thank my noble friends for proposing their amendments, which I support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, this is going to make for a very interesting Division on Report. It will be fascinating to see who ends up in which Lobby.

I should declare an interest that I own an asset of community value—a woodland in Kent. I would be happy to go along with the Bill’s provisions but that is for me. It is my decision and my feeling about my relationship with the community. Any suggestion that assets of community value are restricted to assets that are already in community use when it comes to land is extremely dangerous. It produces exactly the side-effects that all my noble friends have been talking about of immediately causing assets to be withdrawn from community use.

There is no great function for this part of the Bill when it comes to rural communities anyway. Under the neighbourhood planning provisions rural communities with a lot of land and space to spare, and therefore an ability to develop, will be in a very strong position to do deals to support the businesses that they want to support and mould communities in their own ways. They are the great winners from neighbourhood planning. I suspect that suburban communities with decent amounts of space will do equally well. I am concerned about the example that was adduced about the problems that arise in cities where neighbourhood planning has very little to offer. Such communities by and large will not have the ability to tackle these things proactively, to accumulate wealth to be able to support or buy assets as and when they are wanted and to think ahead in the way in which it will happen in rural communities. I do not have an answer to the question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about what happens in cities, but for rural communities this part of the Bill is entirely unnecessary, as neighbourhood planning will do it all.

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

My Lords, I will be very brief as the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, covered many of the points succinctly. First, I thank the Minister for her intervention earlier. It was very helpful, but I think that we need to study the note in the Library. I have a feeling that this will be an iterative process. We would certainly welcome involvement in that and further meetings.

Notwithstanding the benefits that my noble friend Lady Thornton pointed out in respect of this clause to local communities and local areas, we recognise the good intentions and the thrust behind many of the amendments and the arguments that have been presented, together with carefully crafted amendments. We obviously need to look carefully at the practicalities of what this means. I can say certainly that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, struck a chord. It is clearly an issue that we need to take further and seek more clarification from the Government.

We agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, in respect of the centralised delegated powers. We are completely on board with that. That issue has kept coming up throughout all the debates and needs to be looked at very carefully. As I say, I think this is going to be an iterative process. The amendments pose some very serious questions that we need to explore further, and I look forward to what the Minister has to say about that. We will certainly want to sit round the table with the Minister and others and look at this a bit more carefully.