Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, Amendment 29 would add to the protection given to whistleblowers, or those who raise concerns about malpractice or wrongdoing at work by inserting into the Employment Rights Act 1996 provisions which make it clear that a worker has a right not to be subjected to a detriment by a co-worker for making a protected disclosure. It would create vicarious liability on the employer by providing that anything done by a co-worker in the course of his employment, or by an agent for a principal with a principal’s authority,

“must be treated as also done by the”,

employer or principal. The amendment also provides that it does not matter,

“whether that thing is done with the employer’s or principal’s knowledge or approval”.

However, it is a defence for the employer to show that he took all reasonable steps to prevent the co-worker behaving in that way.

It is not difficult to see the need for such provisions, which are modelled on provisions in the Equality Act 2010, given all that we had heard recently about the pressure brought to bear on whistleblowers in the NHS. I do not intend to beat the arguments to death, especially because I am delighted to be able to say that there have been constructive discussions since Committee stage, in which the Government have decided to accept the general thrust of my amendment and come forward with their Amendment 34, which we will no doubt hear about in a moment. This is very much to be welcomed. The Government having brought forward their own amendment, I am happy to withdraw my amendment in due course, provided that the Minister can give me some clarification on the following point.

A concern has been raised by some trade unions regarding the personal liability of workers as set out in proposed new subsection (1E) in government Amendment 34. This allows a defence to personal liability where the employer asked the worker to do a detrimental act against a co-worker—that is to say, where the co-worker relies on the statements of the employer and it is reasonable for them to do so. This, it is feared, impliedly creates personal liability in a way that no other part of the section does. There are some concerns that this will lead to individual workers being sued.

Perhaps it would be helpful to the House if the Minister were now to outline the purpose and scope of his amendment. I beg to move.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for suggesting that I intervene at this early stage in the debate and set out the effect of government Amendment 34. It would introduce the principle of vicarious liability into the whistleblowing protections. It has exactly the same purpose and effect as the noble Lord’s amendment. However, we feel that the drafting of the government amendment better achieves our shared objective and mirrors the provisions in the Equality Act on vicarious liability for discrimination. I look forward to further comments that the noble Lord, Lord Low, may make. I have noted some questions that he has raised, which I will attempt to address later in this debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, as I said earlier, we agree with the aims of this amendment and think that noble Lords are right to seek to mirror the equivalent provisions in the Equality Act 2010. However, the first part of the amendment does not entirely reflect the relevant provision in the Equality Act and, as drafted, that part of the amendment would not enable a whistleblower to bring a claim against a co-worker if they cause them a detriment. The equivalent provision in the Equality Act does allow for claims against co-workers and we think that it is right that the legislation is the same here.

Before I conclude, let me explain this thinking, particularly in view of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston. Individuals have a personal responsibility to make sure that they act in the right way towards people with whom they interact. The law recognises this in many different ways. For example, the law of negligence makes you personally liable if you crash your car into someone and contract law makes you liable if you misrepresent an item that you are selling to somebody. If you are a taxi driver and you crash your car into someone, or a salesman and you misrepresent an item you are selling, the principle of vicarious liability means that your employer will be liable, too. We think that the same should be true in whistleblowing. If you cause a co-worker a detriment after they blow the whistle, perhaps by bullying them, you should be liable for that conduct and your employer should be liable, too. This amendment therefore will encourage workers to behave appropriately to each other and will encourage employers to have the right processes in place to protect whistleblowers. I hope that noble Lords will agree with this approach and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Low, to withdraw his amendment.

Amendment 30 relates to the Government’s introduction of a public interest test to the whistleblowing protections. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government have introduced the test to rectify the loophole which has occurred as a result of the decision in the Parkins v Sodexho case. This decision widened the scope of the protection to include disclosures concerning breaches of personal contracts rather then being restricted to matters of public interest. This amendment would amend the test the Government have introduced. It would mean that a qualifying disclosure would have to be in the health, safety and general interest of the workforce, and this is somewhat narrower than the test which currently exists in Section 43B of the Employment Rights Act 1996. This would impose a stricter qualifying criteria than the test which will exist in Section 43B after the Government’s amendment introducing a public interest test comes into effect. The result would be less protection for whistleblowers and this means that many may choose not to make disclosures, despite the fact that the disclosures would be in the public interest. The Government’s introduction of a public interest test is simply to amend the legislation in light of the Parkins v Sodexho ruling and return it to operating within its original remit.

Before I conclude, I want to respond to some comments that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, made relating to the Mid Staffordshire fiasco. The Government had intended to call for evidence on vicarious liability and other whistleblowing areas following the completion of the Bill. However, the Mid Staffs inquiry has provided evidence which was previously lacking in relation to vicarious liability. It is therefore prudent to make a change now through the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill to introduce protections into the whistle- blowing framework. I hope that that answers the point about the timing of our amendment alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green.

The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, also raised the use of taxpayers’ money to gag whistleblowers. I think that he mentioned the sum of £15 million. As I am sure he is aware, the use of settlement agreements to resolve a dispute is a common practice in both the public and the private sectors as a means of avoiding the cost and stress of employment tribunals. They often involve a sum of money. However, in the cases to which he refers, they cannot buy silence as such clauses are null and void in the whistleblowing context. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will not press the amendment.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

Will the Minister respond to the point I raised about proposed new subsection (1E) and personal liability? Does he have anything to say about that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank the noble Lord for that reminder. Although I do not have anything to say about it, I will most certainly write to him to clarify the points that he raised.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

That would be extremely helpful. I am very grateful for the Minister’s suggestion in that regard. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, in thanking the Minister and his officials for the constructive approach that they have adopted to these amendments. I am sure that the Francis report and the revelations about bullying and intimidation and a culture hostile to disclosure in the NHS have weighed with the Government. I am glad that they have taken what I think is a wise political decision to recognise the force of the arguments for importing the vicarious liability provisions of the Equality Act into the whistleblowing legislation. Indeed, I think the Minister has made the point that the Government’s amendment is a little stronger than mine. On that basis, I am very happy to withdraw the amendment.

BBC: Resignation of Director-General

Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Putting aside the very difficult issues that have arisen over these programmes—which I will not go into—the BBC inquiries will look at all the details and I am sure that in due course we will hear precisely what happened.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

I certainly associate myself with the important points that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, made and that the Minister acknowledged. The BBC has obviously sustained a blow to its credibility and to the trust that is widely reposed in it, and I suppose that this may be described as a crisis. However, I hope that the Minister would agree—and I take it from what he said that he would—that these things must be kept in proportion and that it would be absurd to suggest that a feeding frenzy over particular incidents, however serious, constitutes a global threat to the BBC’s brand, which remains strong overall and rightly continues to command widespread trust and respect.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I agree very much with the comments of the noble Lord; we must keep the issues in proportion. He is completely correct. I was alarmed by the feeding frenzy that came out of the press, particularly some of the headlines regarding the resignation of Mr Entwistle. I believe this should be a period of calm; there is a need for stability to allow the BBC to work through these very difficult problems. I appreciate the comments made by the noble Lord.

Broadband: Street Cabinets

Debate between Lord Low of Dalston and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 22nd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am not aware of that. I am sure that occasionally there may unfortunately be graffiti or otherwise, but let us hope not. We need to find ways around that.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, does the noble Viscount recognise the importance of siting these cabinets sensitively not just from an aesthetic point of view but from the point of view of those who want to walk in safety on the pavement? It is important to be aware of the potential hazard that cabinets like these can cause to blind people and others who want to walk safely on the pavement.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord makes an extremely good point. I know that DCMS officials have already had discussions with Ofcom, BT and Virgin Media regarding a proposed code of practice that includes ensuring that these cabinets are placed in positions of safety on the streets and so, for example, not on street corners or on narrow streets. That will allow individuals, including disabled people, to pass by.