Changing and Toilet Facilities in Public Buildings

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for tabling this Question for Short Debate. I should again declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, because many of these facilities are provided by local authorities.

The noble Lord has raised a very important issue. I hope we can have a longer debate in this Session. I know that the noble Lord has tabled many Questions, but the Government should consider having a longer debate in the next few months—that would be very welcome.

I very much support the work of the British Toilet Association in its campaign to make more toilets available generally to the public. There has been a noticeable and disappointing reduction in the number of facilities, and a number of noble Lords have made reference to that. The noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Grey-Thompson, raised important issues about the facilities for disabled people and how we still have a considerable way to go to deliver an adequate number of toilets to meet people’s needs.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, was absolutely right when she said that we must have an open and respectful debate that addresses concerns about protecting people. I was very sorry to hear that she has again suffered abuse on social media: we need to deal with that in this House and elsewhere—it is just unacceptable.

The provision of toilets and changing-room facilities in public buildings has had considerable attention in the media recently, and that is to be welcomed. It is only by discussing these issues that we can come to a position where we are generally agreed on the way forward. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that these matters need to be resolved by talking in a calm and non-aggressive manner, and by dealing with the issues in a sensitive way.

There are three issues which need serious consideration. There is parity of access to toilet facilities between men and women and the fact that that there need to be more women’s facilities than men’s to achieve that parity, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, mentioned in his contribution. Then there are the needs of the trans community to be able to access toilets and changing-room facilities and to feel safe, protected and not discriminated against. The third issue is the need for women to be able to access toilet and changing facilities, and, again, to feel safe, protected and not discriminated against. It is easy to say that; delivering it is more difficult. But respecting people, respecting difference and seeking ways to move forward on that basis must be the right thing to do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, made the point that it is often members of the trans community who are abused in these situations. We need to take that point to heart. We also need to make policy, regulations and decisions based on evidence, not discrimination, and to challenge ourselves on what we think are acceptable norms or attitudes.

I listened carefully to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. I agree that at least—and probably more than—half of all facilities should be reserved for women. Some of the noble Lord’s comments were not particularly helpful. This is not about satisfying an aggressive, militant lobby, but about ensuring that we are all treated with respect. If we do that and, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, called for, if people come together and discuss this matter in that way, we can get a reasonable solution. I also agree with the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about both Stonewall and the Fawcett Society.

The noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson of Winterbourne, raised a number of questions about the NHS. I look forward to the response to those points from the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. I see the argument for gender-neutral facilities as clearly as I do the argument for women-only facilities; both are valid. I would want to accommodate both demands in public buildings. Some may oppose that as a way forward and, although attitudes may change over time, I cannot at present see how we can have either/or. Some public buildings have partly switched over to gender-neutral toilets and you can design and deliver excellent facilities, taking into consideration the needs of all. I may be wrong, but I think I am right in saying that the public toilets in the main reception of Southwark Council are all gender-neutral.

I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for raising this issue, which must be discussed again and again in this House. Only by having a debate can we come to reasonable solutions on issues that concern many people. I look forward to the Minister’s response to this Question.