Greater Manchester Combined Authority (Functions and Amendment) Order 2017

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

We on this side support much of what is in the order. The extension of powers and functions to the mayoral authority in Manchester is to be applauded, especially as it moves some way towards those that are enjoyed in London. However, even in London, the decisions made by the mayor can be called to account by an elected body, the London Assembly. Manchester will have the leaders of the constituent councils, and a scrutiny committee will be formed from those constituent councils—that is all. No specific body will be elected for the purpose of calling the mayor and his decisions to account, but the more powers that are given to the mayoral function the more important that calling to account becomes.

The Minister has listed the significant powers that the mayor of Manchester is to have. They include policing, fire, strategic planning, transport and housing, and waste disposal is now added to that list. The only way in which the constituent members of the combined authority can call the mayor to account on the decisions and choices that he makes is via either the council leaders or a small scrutiny committee. I for one think that is inadequate, and I envisage a point further down the line when the mayor will make a controversial decision and local residents will ask themselves, “How did this happen? Who made the decision and why were we not involved?”.

That is the danger, which I would urge the Minister to consider and rectify at some point in the future, particularly as money is now involved. This has already been pointed out, but I will quote from Part 5 of the order, which relates to funding. It states that,

“the constituent councils must meet the costs of the expenditure reasonably”—

whatever that means—

“incurred by the Mayor in, or in connection with, the exercise of the functions specified”.

That, it goes on to describe, is regardless of whether the constituent councils agree, because there only has to be a majority decision among the leaders of those councils, which means of course that local taxpayers in one of the constituent councils could be asked to contribute to a scheme with which their leader does not agree. I find that quite disturbing. There ought to be a mechanism for reaching difficult decisions that enables all local councils to agree to them. That in my view means the kind of set-up that we have in London with the London Assembly.

Obviously there is much in the order about devolution that I agree with and that is right, because we will have a body with a strategic vision for the conurbation of Manchester. What is not acceptable in my view is the lack of democracy that attaches to that, and the dangers of investing all those powers in one person. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to these concerns.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall start with my usual declaration and refer the House to my interests in the register. I declare that I am an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. The Greater Manchester Combined Authority order before us brings into force what I hope is the final part of the agreement. I feel that we always seem to be discussing the Greater Manchester Combined Authority in various forms and I hope that this is the last time we will need to consider it before the election itself.

I have no particular issue to raise on the order. My noble friend Lord Beecham raised an important point on consultation. We have now had a number of these orders and I think that it is fair to say that, for each one, the consultation responses, while I will not say they have been derisory, have not been overwhelming coming through the door. At some point the Government might need to look at how we are consulting people. These are quite big changes that are taking place and, if no one is engaging with the discussion on that, it will be something we shall all regret.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, made some important points on the devolution of power. I support the devolution of power. If the noble Lord and I were agreeing the manifestos of our respective parties we would be absolutely fine and we would probably agree. But I have no role at all in the Labour manifesto this time, so we will have to see what comes up. The noble Lord and I would probably agree on many things.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this order on Greater Manchester. I will pick up first on the fulsome tribute paid by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, to George Osborne—equalled only by the fulsome tribute made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to Tony Lloyd. As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, it is absolutely right that George Osborne has been very firmly behind these proposals, particularly in relation to the northern powerhouse.

On the points the noble Lord made in relation to consultation, I appreciate the need for consultation and strongly support it. However, he will be aware that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which looked at this draft order, was content that every effort had been made in relation to consultation. I agree that it is a shame that more people did not respond: nevertheless, it is important to put that in context. Those who did respond, responded favourably in every single area that the consultation looked at, as the noble Lord is very generously indicating.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is right about paragraph 2.6 of the report accompanying the order. It is not anticipated that we will use this power to upset the balance of power within the authority. Perhaps I could write him more fully on that point.

On a general point made by many noble Lords on overview and scrutiny—the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, stressed the importance of this—it is important to note that, in fairness to the authority here, all the deals are bespoke: each one is somewhat different. Greater Manchester has gone further on independence of members by ensuring that a member represents the constituent authority. The chair of any overview and scrutiny committee has to be of a party different from that of the mayor. That does not necessarily apply to the audit committee. That must have an independent member, but they need not necessarily be the chair. I applaud the authority for pushing for that—and the Government were of course very keen to accept it.

My noble friend Lord Deben spoke graphically and eloquently of the silo system of government. I have much sympathy with him on that point and will take it forward. He may have other avenues open to him—perhaps even further up the food chain than me—where he can perhaps convey that message to ensure that it is taken on board. It is a message that is heard loud and clear.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for her general welcome for the draft order and the programme of devolution. I agree with her on the need for balance between the different parts of the devolution deal; that is, the councils represented by individuals on the combined authority, and the mayor. On expenditure, while I appreciate that the phrase “reasonably incurred” perhaps lacks a certain substance, the courts are familiar with dealing with it. However, I take the general point that the noble Baroness makes; it is a very fair one. I also take her point about the need to take everybody with you in so far as you can. I am sure that any mayor of Greater Manchester, whatever their party or whether or not they are independent, will want to ensure that that is the case, so that it is not simply a question of counting heads for majority rule.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, once again for his constructive approach, as always, on this issue and for the vignette on Millwall. No debate is complete without a vignette from the noble Lord’s borough, and I am very pleased to hear the news on that in any event. I agree with him on the importance of scrutiny and look forward, as he does, to the elections and to taking this important step forward in the way that we govern our country. With that, I commend the draft order to the House.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I have a final question for the Minister; it is not a problem if he writes to me on it. Police and crime commissioners are limited to two terms. I assume that the mayor is not term-limited. Perhaps he could look at that and write to me, because it would obviously be a slightly different case when it came to looking at mayors of combined authorities, police functions and police and crime commissioners.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord and will gladly write to him on that point.