Equipment Interference (Code of Practice) Order 2015

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the proposals, which were conscientiously and effectively explained by the Minister. I recollect him in another guise in another place, where he practised, to a degree, the black arts and would have been pleased by a depleted Committee on a Monday when many Members are travelling.

I rise to support the measures and to emphasise a truth with regard to measures such as these. The existence of secret services in a parliamentary democracy always requires debate and scrutiny, which is why we are in Committee this afternoon. We debate and argue, at length, sometimes, as is our duty. We need our secret services. It was possible for our sovereign to attend the 2012 Olympic Games in total safety because of the successful, thorough and patriotic work of our secret services and the allied services alongside them. They always aim to prevent terrorism and to fight it by all means. Praise should go to the then director of MI5, Jonathan Evans—now the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Weardale—and the many people in other services alongside him in that successful approach to the 2012 Olympic Games.

To give noble Lords a little history, I had the honour of chairing the Standing Committee in another place that gave legitimacy and birth to the Intelligence and Security Committee, which is referred to in the measures before us. It was necessary to bring the security services into the public domain because of a hearing in the Strasbourg court. My constituent, when I was in another place, required the legislation. That case brought forward the legislation that brought into being the IS Committee. Later, having taken the chair for that legislation, the late John Smith nominated me to join the Intelligence and Security Committee as a founder member. For something like 10 years I found myself travelling to Washington, Ottawa and European capitals as a member of that committee. As a result of those experiences, I see the relevance of what the Minister has put to this Committee, and I offer it my modest support.

Noble Lords may know that the witnesses at that IS Committee were former Prime Ministers, former Foreign Secretaries, even the onetime archivist of the KGB, many Permanent Secretaries and directors of the secret services. The committee I served on was very ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord King, who in another place was Tom King MP. Bringing these matters up to date, I note that there was a previous Joint Committee of both Houses that considered legislation not dissimilar from some of the measures referred to by the Minister. I served on that Joint Committee and I noted the evidence given, firmly but politely, by the Home Secretary.

I emphasise that the orders before us are very necessary but they will need to be stringently and carefully examined and debated from time to time, and that is the process in which we are engaged today. I heard the Minister talking about stringent conditions. With regard to the investigatory powers, members of the Joint Committee were able to meet the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, the then assistant commissioner, Cressida Dick, and the considerable, able and conscientious team working under their leadership at the offices on the other side of the Thames. I have no doubt whatever that the conditions are stringent and it was right that the Minister made that point.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, the orders before us today are important. They are tools to obtain evidence of suspected wrongdoing. I can tell the noble Lord that the Opposition support both orders, although we have some concerns. There has to be a balance between the scope of the powers exercised by the state and the rights of individuals who are subject to the exercise of those powers.

The noble Lord will, I am sure, be aware of the concerns raised by the Bar Council in relation to legal privilege. It would be helpful if he could say something about the safeguards against interference with privileged communications and, in particular, how the equipment interference order could result in the acquisition of matters subject to legal privilege, as well as what steps are being taken to mitigate such a risk. What I am looking for today from the noble Lord, Lord Bates, is more reassurance that the balance has been properly fixed. Clearly, technology is moving very fast and I am supportive of the Government ensuring, on the one hand, that the powers are appropriate and up to date and, on the other, that the procedures are properly codified and people’s rights are respected. I also understand that the orders are likely to be in force for only a short time, as of course we will be having the new Bill, which has to be on the statute book by the end of next year.

It would be helpful if the noble Lord could explain to the Committee a bit more about the safeguards that are in place, particularly in relation to the interception of communications code. Can he also say a bit more about the equipment interference code? As he said, it confers no new powers but simply sets out those powers and the safeguards that are in place. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, suggests that new powers are being conferred, so the comments of the two noble Lords contrast somewhat. Therefore, we need to be clear about whether there are new powers in this code. If the noble Lord says that there are not, can he set out for the Committee why he believes that he is correct and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is wrong in that respect? Having said that, the Opposition support the orders.

[Lord Bates]

First, scheduling business is a matter entirely in the inscrutable hands of the Whips’ Office and usual channels. The Home Office has no influence on that. I take it that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was referring to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, who plays a very important role in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the investigatory powers Bill at present. Of course, we appreciate his expertise in this area. I am sure he will bring that fully to bear when the Bill comes before your Lordships’ House later. Let me try to deal with some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, raised.

One was: why choose to do this now when we have legislation going through? I alluded to part of the reason in my opening speech, relating to current or recent cases that have gone through the Investigatory Powers Tribunal service. There is always a balance to be struck there. The legislation proposed is just that: it is proposed—it is not on the statute book. We need to make sure that the powers are in place appropriately and that the code is kept up to date for the purposes of activities that happen in the interim.

That is an important element as well, which I would convey through the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, back to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger. Given the noble Lord’s strong interest in these areas, I assume he would welcome these codes of practice being kept up to date in the light of case law going through the tribunal and, in particular, in relation to equipment interference. Effectively, there are now 18 pages of guidance that were previously not in the public domain. Those can now be scrutinised and reviewed. They are there to be reviewed by the committee currently sitting, should it so wish. All the way through this process with investigatory powers legislation, we are trying to make sure, at the same time, that the security services have the tools they need to do their job and that we keep the public on our side in feeling that the powers exercised—which are intrusive in certain cases—are necessary and proportionate.

I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Jones, on the Intelligence and Security Committee in the other place. He knows all too well about the work going on. In that context, he will be aware that the powers we are talking about are not notional or academic. Elements of investigatory powers are deployed in response to the majority of serious and organised crime, such as the seven terrorist acts over the past year prevented by the security services. I certainly join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the work those services do to keep us safe.

I shall deal with some of the other issues raised. I will come back to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, that in a sense our argument is that there is nothing new here and, at the same time, we are introducing some new measures. I will be able to tell him what is new in this.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked if, before now, it was an offence under the Computer Misuse Act to interfere with equipment. The answer is no. The powers to undertake equipment interference are contained in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 and the Police Act 1997, so we do not believe that at any point the police or security services have operated outside their powers. The noble Lord asked about the number of thematic equipment interference warrants that have been requested. That information is not collected centrally at present. Of course, we also have as part of the investigatory powers a quite sophisticated system of commissioners who oversee these processes, to whom those who feel that their rights have been trespassed on wrongly can go to seek redress—either directly through the commissioner or through the tribunal. Of course, that happens.