Building Safety Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is not normal for the Opposition Chief Whip to respond to a Second Reading debate, but Members will be aware that I have been involved with these issues for some considerable time. I have also missed the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, very much, so I thought that with him leading on this Bill and it being such an important issue, I would have to make an appearance. Maybe I will be part of the Chief Whips Awkward Squad from now on. I am not sure that the noble Lord has missed me, or my amendments, as much. I have my Oral Question on Monday on issues very pertinent to this Bill, as he knows.

First, I need to make a number of declarations of interest to the House. I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd and chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association. I also own a home on a leasehold basis.

Secondly, I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester for his service to the House. He has been a Member of this House for 10 years, and we have benefited from his wise counsel. I note his interests in Africa and education, and I say to the right reverend Prelate that we enjoyed his wonderful valedictory speech very much and congratulate him on it. We will miss him very much, and we wish him well in his retirement.

Thirdly, can I say how much I welcome the Bill before us? It does much of what needs to be done to improve building safety and the building safety regime that needs to be in place to protect people and give them the reassurance they need to live their lives without feeling constant worry, and without being faced with bills they cannot afford for matters they are not responsible for causing or creating.

For too long, elements of the building industry have had a poor attitude to safety, in terms of construction, materials and the verification processes to ensure safety and compliance. I see this Bill very much as another step along the way to driving that culture out. It is not and can never be acceptable that this culture exists. The tragedy in all this is that the catalyst for change was the fire at Grenfell Tower on 14 June 2017, with the loss of 72 lives, and the campaign by Grenfell United following that tragedy. Its campaign goes on, and there will be more to be done when we get the report of the second phase of the Grenfell Tower inquiry.

I very much agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson of Welton, about buck-passing and, importantly, the attitudes she highlighted when she read out some of the comments in those emails. It is utterly disgraceful, and that is the culture that needs to be dealt with. The arrogance of the former leadership of Kensington and Chelsea Council needs to be called out as well.

But, of course, there were heroes. There were heroes on the night: the firefighters who went into the burning building; other emergency responders; the contractor who went in and turned the gas off; the local community that responded; the officials from both local and central government who supported the community; and, of course, the community itself and Grenfell United. They all showed people working together selflessly for the benefit of others. They are the best examples of humanity—but we have also seen the worst examples as well.

I have to say, as I have many times before, that the Prime Minister’s constant attacks on the FBU irritate me. Let us be absolutely clear: the FBU—the firefighters’ union—and the firefighters, the heroes, are the same people. We cannot attack the union and then say what great people the firefighters are. That does annoy me. I have called on him many times before to apologise, and I expect that I will be waiting a long time for that to come along, but I want to put that on record.

As we have heard, many of the proposals contained in the Bill build on the review led by Dame Judith Hackitt and the consultation that followed, which had submissions from the Local Government Association, the National Housing Federation and others. I join with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester in his tribute to the Manchester Cladiators and the other “cladiator” groups around the country. The justness of their campaign has been clear for all to see. They are not going to go away; there is more to be done. Their cause is just, and we support them very much.

I have criticised the Government from the Dispatch Box many times on this issue, often about the speed of all this. We have got here, finally, with the Bill, and that is great. But the Bill is not sufficient. Dame Judith’s report was published in May 2018, nearly four years ago. Looking at the issues in the Bill, you could never accuse the Government of acting in haste. I note that there was a draft Bill in the other place, and important work has been carried out, but we now need to quickly get on, get the Bill through this House and improve things.

Having said that, as the Official Opposition, we certainly intend to table several amendments to seek to challenge the assumptions in the Bill and to make improvements to it where we think it necessary, and we will divide the House if we must. I am aware that the Government made several commitments in the other place to bring forward amendments to address issues raised there. We look forward to having early sight of these amendments and to having constructive discussions around them and the way forward.

Looking at the Bill itself, I welcome the proposal for the establishment of the building safety regulator and the proposal that the Health and Safety Executive should be the regulator. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, to set out whether he himself is satisfied that the funding mechanism is adequate, proportionate and financially robust enough to enable the building safety regulator, local authorities and fire and rescue services to go about their important roles efficiently and effectively and to deliver on the promises and commitments made. I fully support the duty to co-operate that will exist for local authorities and fire and rescue services, but, as I have said, we need to be confident that the funding streams and mechanisms are fit for purpose to deliver what is required.

I am also clear that the Bill cannot be seen as separate from the Fire Safety Act. I ask the noble Lord in responding to the debate to address the issue of the responsible person under the fire safety order, the accountable person under the Building Safety Bill, and how that comes together. We cannot create a situation which will cause more difficulty and confusion. We must have clarity here in terms of roles, responsibilities, obligations and what can and cannot be charged for.

I welcome the changes to the fire safety order, which introduces a duty for a fire risk assessment to be completed by competent professionals. As my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock said, the issue of height in determining risk has been questioned here today, and many noble Lords across the House have accepted the point that many buildings under 18 metres equally have issues and need to be classified as high risk. I hope that the Government can come forward and publish the findings of their report on the recent survey on buildings between 11 metres and 18 metres, so that we can see the points they looked at there.

Issues such as methods of construction, the number of protected means of escape and the number of vulnerable residents in the building have all been raised by other noble Lords, and we need to take them into account. I very much believe that the definition of higher-risk buildings needs to be broadened to cover the points that I and others have raised. Can the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, also comment on those matters in his reply to the debate?

I am conscious that there have been so many questions that the noble Lord cannot respond to them all, so maybe he could take a leaf out of the book of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, and write us a round-robin letter covering all the points. That was one of the great things that the noble Lord always did, so maybe the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, could do that to cover all the points raised to make sure that nothing slips by, as it were.

We have talked many times over the past four years about the problems that leaseholders living in buildings affected by either cladding concerns or other building safety issues have faced. While the Government have moved on the issue of cladding—I thank the noble Lord very much for his own work on that—clearly lots more work needs to be done and other issues need to be addressed, and I am sure they will be raised in the course of the Bill going through this House.

I have a few questions for the Government. How will they ensure that industry plays its part and pays for the fund it has been asked to pay for? How will the Government continue to play their part and pay the funds needed to end the crisis while ensuring both that funding is affordable and that social housing supply is protected? It is really important that money is not taken from the social housing fund to fund this work. How can leaseholders who have already paid remediation costs get their money back? That is a really important issue for the leaseholders.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stunell. The Minister’s words and the action for leaseholders are very welcome. I very much support these.

My noble friend Lady Warwick of Undercliffe raised important issues with which I agree and to which I am sure the Minister will respond when he replies to the debate. How can we ensure that housing associations will have access to funding to carry on their important building work, delivering for people as well?

Can we have clarity on for which works additional funding can be recouped, and which the industry will cover? Can the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, confirm that the affordable homes programme will be protected in full and ensure that the existing departmental budget will not, as I said, be used as a backstop for the funding if the building industry does not come forward with the money we expect?

I fully endorse the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. He raised really pertinent questions for the Minister to answer in the course of the Bill’s passage through this House. They are the matters on which we need answers, otherwise we will have lots of amendments on Report to deal with those points, which need answering.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, made a very important point about the use of converted office buildings as flats, which need to be fully integrated into the fire safety regime. I welcome the changes to provisions relating to the Defective Premises Act, that claims will be able to be made retrospectively for leaseholders and the eligibility extension to 30 years.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, I support the calls by Electrical Safety First, and I pay tribute to the work of that charity in campaigning for mandatory electrical safety checks in both social rented homes and leasehold properties. It is important to understand that we have mandatory electrical safety checks in the private sector but not in the social sector or leasehold properties. All three types of tenure, however, could be found in the same block of flats. Unless all three types are checked to ensure that they are correct, the building is not safe. It is important that we bring social housing and leasehold properties up to the same standard, otherwise the buildings are not safe. I hope we can discuss this further and get it agreed while the Bill goes through the House.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, I very much support the calls from the British Woodworking Federation on the issues of construction, product testing, inspections and the competence of fire risk assessors, installers and building managers. I could not believe these shocking figures: of the 100,000 inspections carried out, 76% of fire doors failed their inspection. This is an absolutely appalling situation and its own scandal, which needs to be put right.

The noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, my noble friends Lady Young of Old Scone and Lord Jordan, the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and others raised the campaign for safer stairs. Again, this is a very simple change that we want to get through in the Bill. I look forward to the amendment being tabled; it is one that these Benches will certainly support if the House is divided.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, who has called for home energy efficiency targets to be enshrined in law. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, can take up the offer from the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, to take his Private Member’s Bill on board. I am sure that would be welcomed by all sides of the House.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, who gave a very powerful speech about building fire safety, highlighted how evacuation procedures are completely inadequate for disabled people. The number of disabled people who lost their lives in Grenfell Tower is absolutely tragic and shocking.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, with his tremendous experience, outlined the problems with leasehold and commonhold. His point about reliance on the industry stepping up and what happens when it does not needs to be addressed by the Minister in his response today. The polluter pays amendment is great and could work well, but what if it does not? Could we examine what would happen? We also need to look at that. What could be the robust mechanism behind it to ensure that it works?

The noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, highlighted some of the inadequacies in the Bill, particularly in regard to leaseholders and their means of redress for problems. He speaks with great experience and authority on these matters and the Government should listen to his remarks, which would help the Bill through the House.

I enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and look forward to considering his amendments. We may well support them and cause more problems for the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh. I very much look forward to that.

In conclusion, there is a general welcome for the Bill. Members right across the House want it to become law quickly. Legitimate concerns have been raised in the House that need addressing. Legitimate questions need answering. The Government need to respond and table amendments quickly in response to the concerns raised and have those discussions. However, as always, I am hopeful of positive engagement with the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh. He always does so and I thank him for that. There is no desire to divide the House but, equally, if we have to do so we will. Finally, as I said, we would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that he will send that round-robin letter because it is impossible to respond to all the points. I would not want anything to slip through the cracks.