Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Jenkin of Roding Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Marland, is to be congratulated on his presentation of the amendments, and it is important that we also place on the record the fact that we welcome many of the government amendments before us. We still consider that more could have been done by the Government to make the legislation as effective as possible, but we welcome the direction the Government have moved in.

A number of issues were first raised in your Lordships’ House, and even if the Government did not concede the point at the time, it is clear that the Minister listened and that changes have been made in the other place. Specifically on the Green Deal, there is a clause that states the ambition of the Bill. Important consumer protections are now in place, particularly on the impartiality of the assessors, as well as the issues around apprenticeships. Further on in the Bill, the suggestion in amendments put forward by my noble friend Lord Judd in relation to the national parks has been taken up.

The noble Lord, Lord Marland, referred to the collaboration and co-operation that has marked the course of the Bill. I concur entirely with that, and I acknowledge his willingness to engage in debate, which was welcome. As successful as we have been on seeing a number of improvements made to the Bill, there were times when my persuasive powers failed. He knows that we do not give up easily, and I am sure that as this legislation is implemented we will all want to monitor its effectiveness and see how improvements can be made. We understand very well that this is a framework Bill and that further secondary legislation will be brought forward. I hope that we will be able to continue the collaborative approach we have seen during the course of this Bill. Given that the statutory instruments will be unamendable, it would be helpful to have discussions prior to them being brought before the House in order to get the best results possible. We have made it clear that we want the Green Deal to be successful, and early discussions on the 52-plus sets of regulations that will be tabled would be in the best interests of moving forward.

I turn to the amendments in the group before us. I welcome the introduction of the energy efficiency aim as set out in Commons Amendment 97. This was first raised in your Lordships’ House, and it would be a lost opportunity if it was not anchored in existing environmental legislation. The Government have said that they want to be the greenest Government ever, so tackling climate change has to be at the heart of any Government who seek to be responsible on the environment. Although I know that the Government do not like targets, they have often proved to be the best way of achieving stated aims. We have always recognised the potential for this legislation to be a good tool towards fulfilling the Government’s environmental objectives, including the carbon target set by the last Labour Government. This government amendment on energy efficiency aims sets down the right sentiments and heads in the right direction.

Amendment 96A is one that will assist the Government in measuring the success of the Green Deal by including in the annual report the number of homes that have had energy efficiency measures installed in that and in previous years as part of the deal. I acknowledge that the noble Lord agreed to this when we discussed it in Committee and possibly again on Report, but knowing how many homes have taken up the opportunity to subscribe to the Green Deal will allow the Government to take action in order to improve take-up, if necessary, and gauge success. I would be grateful if the noble Lord could respond to that. We all know how difficult it can be to wade through government reports to find exactly the figures we are looking for, but this would be a simple figure to illustrate how successful the project has been, and to take action if it has not.

I welcome the fact that the Government have taken on many of the concerns raised in your Lordships’ House and elsewhere about protection for the consumer. One area on which I badgered the Minister was the impartiality of the assessors. I know he felt that I went on at some length and rather laboured the point in Committee, but clearly the Government have listened and brought forward Amendment 4, which requires,

“green deal assessors to act with impartiality”,

and that is very welcome. Some concerns remain on this point; that is why I have tabled Amendments 4A and 4B, which are about monitoring and enforcement. I know that those details will come forward in regulation, and I welcome further discussions prior to those details coming forward.

The two amendments seek only to strengthen the points that the Government are making with this amendment. My amendments would have the effect of ensuring that the code of practice will extend to any arrangements for monitoring and enforcing impartiality. Amendment 4B is seeking to give the consumer the information on which the assessment will be made. That strengthens the consumer in that they know what to expect from the assessor and the methodology used. It would make it very much harder for an unscrupulous assessor to give bad advice and provide bad options for customers. One reason this amendment is so important is that the debt stays with the property, not with the individual who originally incurred that debt. It might be many years before any problems or difficulties came to light. It is better to take preventative action at an early stage rather than to wait until there is a problem, which might be quite difficult to resolve. The amendment also fulfils the Government’s objectives of openness and transparency.

I welcome the Government’s clarification to the Labour amendment passed in the Commons committee on Green Deal apprenticeships. I appreciate that the Government were not fully behind this proposal initially, but following the success of the amendment and voted on by Conservative Members in the House of Commons —albeit, I think, accidentally—the Government have responded well, for which I am grateful.

My final amendment relates to Commons Amendment 18, which proposes the new clause headed “Exercise of scheme functions on behalf of the Secretary of State or a public body”. We have discussed previously what public bodies could be involved. I am seeking clarification on whether they include charities, social enterprises and other non-profit-making organisations. I suspect that they do, but from the wording it is not clear. Furthermore, could the Minister clarify whether the Government intend to consult Green Deal participants and consumer groups about any proposals in this area to ensure that we get it right and that we take on board any comments that they have at an early stage?

I know that the Minister understands the concerns that I have raised with him directly about the financing arrangements. I remain concerned that the interest rate for any loan or credit agreement on the Green Deal is not a fixed loan as the legislation stands at present. The Minister has said to me that he takes the view, understandably, that the Government cannot intervene in the finance market in this way. I put a further point to the Minister for consideration. The Government have already intervened in the market by creating a new system of a loan or credit agreement attached to a property rather than to an individual. That is different from most loans and most credit agreements. So someone who purchases a house that already has a Green Deal credit arrangement has no say in the terms and conditions of that loan. They have a say if they have taken over the house and the terms and conditions of any mortgage that they may undertake, but not on a loan that is part of the Green Deal. Many people may well be reluctant to take on such a long-term loan or credit agreement that could run for another 10 or 15 years without knowing what the rate of interest could be and having had no say in the terms and conditions of that agreement. Given those unusual circumstances, it does not seem unreasonable that the interest rate should be fixed, so that someone coming along in the middle or at some stage in that loan knows what the interest rate will be for the remainder of that loan, given that it was taken out by another individual.

I hope that the Minister can reflect further on that point. I think it would be very helpful and perhaps lead to a greater take-up of the Green Deal, because it would not put prospective participants of the Green Deal off by worries about what would happen if they want to sell their property afterwards.

My final comment on this group of amendments is about the regulations, repeating the points that I made earlier. It would be very helpful if the Minister could give a commitment that he is happy to discuss any secondary legislation prior to it being tabled in the House. The spirit of collaboration and co-operation that we have had so far for this Bill has been very welcome and has led to significant changes that have improved it. We are grateful to have been part of that and welcome the Minister’s comments on those proposals.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I will be extremely brief. The Commons amendments, particularly those in this group, make considerable improvements to the Bill, and it was very welcome to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, say that the Opposition are finding it easy to accept these amendments.

I also thank my noble friend Lord Marland for the amount of trouble that he and his officials have taken with what is, at first sight, a pretty formidable list of amendments that have come from the other place. When I picked up the paper initially from the Printed Paper Office, I thought that we might be here for a week. But he has taken a huge amount of trouble to explain what the amendments are all about, which will make our debate very much simpler.

I want to raise two points on this group of amendments, which I have discussed with my noble friend. I have always found it difficult to understand why, if somebody chooses to pay off a debt early, they are subject to some sort of penalty. I would have thought that if you pay off your mortgage early, as I did some years ago, the lender then has more money to lend to somebody else. Why should one be expected to pay him compensation because you have repaid him early? Can my noble friend justify why that is particularly relevant in this case? He also talked about the regulations that will be limited to Green Deals of a specified length and so on. Is he able to give us any guidance as to how that will work?

The second point is much more relevant. From the beginning it has been recognised that a body will have to be appointed to manage the Green Deal oversight and the authorisation scheme, because that will be fundamental to securing the consumer protection that, quite rightly, the noble Baroness has referred to. Can we yet be told anything about who that will be or to what body this vital task is going to be entrusted? We have now come to the final stage of this Bill. It has gone on for a long time and we still know nothing about who is going to run the scheme. It is obviously going to be under the general supervision of Ministers, but a body will be delegated to manage the Green Deal oversight and authorisation scheme. Can my noble friend tell us anything more about that at this stage?

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, I would like to ask just one question, which I asked at Second Reading and in Committee. Heating a house is also a matter of ventilation. I raised the fact that the word “ventilation” was not in the Bill and the Minister assured me that it was not. We still have no reference that I can see in the Bill to advice about investment in ventilation systems in housing, which is a huge part of the thermodynamics. Just to satisfy the odd thermodynamics freak in this House, I wonder whether he could put that straight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the changes that he has made. I very much agree with the spirit in which the noble Lord has brought forward his amendments. However, I do not think we should leave this without accepting that this has been a major response to the pressures which have been brought about, and we ought to thank my noble friend for that.

However strongly one feels about the need for care with regulation, this is one area where regulation is essential. As any of us who have had to deal with this on either a constituency basis or a ministerial basis will know, there are many good landlords; but, my goodness, there are some pretty bad ones as well. I too would like to ask whether we could think again about the seven-year period, for several reasons. First of all, one has to think of the situation of a family in such accommodation. It is the whole primary-school period for a child. Seven years is a very long time for people in very poor accommodation, and it is something that we can do something about.

It is also very bad environmentally. Forget the sadness of the people themselves—we are wasting energy in a way which is unnecessary, in circumstances where this can relatively easily be put right.

Thirdly, although I hesitate to draw too close a comparison with other things that are happening, there is a worry that we are not living up to the promises that we have made. Therefore people are worried about the date of 2016. It is a crucial date. If this Government in any way move from that date, they will do huge damage to the housing industry. The good housebuilders are all prepared to meet the requirements which the last Government laid on them and which this Government are continuing. There are some quite large housebuilders who have no intention of doing anything about this until they are absolutely sure that we are sticking to 2016. It would be a crying shame if their tardiness were to succeed, and those who had done the job and were prepared were found to have wasted very considerable amounts of their money preparing to meet the Government’s targets. I am worried that if we move this from 2016 to 2018, there will be those in the companies which have decided not to do the job properly who will say, “There you are—the Government are not really absolutely sure. It is not actually on that date”.

Therefore I beg the Minister to reassure us that 2016 is written in stone, because the best housebuilders have spent a great deal of money on being prepared for that, and they will not only not forgive the Government but will not believe the Government again if we move from that. It is a cross-party agreement, and it is one which I think is crucial.

I therefore ask the Minister whether it is possible to think again about 2016. Five years is plenty of time to prepare, even for the most unhappy of landlords. I do not believe they need another two years; and there is also the ancillary problem, which I hope will be put right.

The second thing I wanted to say, very briefly, refers back to a point which has been raised about not being sure as to what all this means. Certainty is the key thing for the housing industry. I declare an interest in this, because although I am not a landlord I advise some housing companies on how to build ecological houses, and I do that as the chairman of a company as well. These are not covered, I am happy to say, by this Bill, so I can speak entirely independently, but as someone who knows something about it, the one thing the industry needs is absolute certainty. If there is any doubt in the way in which the amendments have been so fortunately made, I hope the Minister will allay those fears now, simply because this is an industry that does not actually move very fast, and only moves when it knows precisely what it has to do. I fear that is true, and it will be very helpful if the Minister would allay those fears.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I will make two brief points. The first is that, yes, there are landlords who fall well short of the standards that we might like them to adhere to. I am especially concerned with one category of letting, and that is letting to students. I say this with some feeling, as my grandchildren are in exactly this position now. A group of four students at Imperial rented accommodation in the north-east of London, and it was so draughty that my dear granddaughter came and said, “Please may we have a rug to lay against the front door to keep the snow out?”. They were not going to be there for more than a year, and indeed they were already looking for something else. However, these will be the really difficult cases, and I think one has to recognise that.

My second point is quite different. I have been consulting local authorities, because they now have quite specific rules to enforce the new provisions that are made for the private rented sector. I am gratified to find that they are in fact quite ready to take that up. They welcome this, provided that the full cost will be met, and that this will be treated under a full burdens assessment so that they will not have to thrust the cost upon their council tax payers. I think that they have been given some assurances, but if those assurances could be repeated this evening by my noble friend that would be very welcome.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I also thank the Minister for bringing forward the substantive amendments here. However, I would also like to support the noble Lord, Lord Best, particularly on Amendment 35E, on the date. We have arrived at a slightly illogical position. There was some concern when the date was 2016, but there was a certain logic to that date. People were worried about it taking five years, but in the original proposition there was a review to be completed by 2014. The Government have accepted the logic of removing that review, which might delay progress and clarity about what we were requesting. However, that should make 2016 easier to attain, rather than less easy. I am therefore somewhat bemused as to why we are now talking about 2018 for meeting these standards.

I will accept that there could be two logical reasons for it. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has touched on one: the argument that local authorities need time to prepare and to set up their enforcement. However, that is not what local authorities are saying. They are concerned about the cost, but they are also quite keen to get involved in this, at least at the RDA level. No doubt one or two local authorities will not quite make it but we know that most of them are trying to. Frankly, it would be slightly easier for them to do so had an amendment to another Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Best, which would have allowed the local authorities to set up registers been accepted by the noble Lord’s colleagues in the DCLG. However, it is not really the case—

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I have specifically asked the local authority associations where they stand on the issue of 2016 or 2018. While they see the attraction of 2016, they have actually made it quite clear that they are not taking a position on this. No doubt different local authorities will have different views. However, the associations have specifically told me firmly that they are not taking sides in this argument.